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Thread: Horsepower in a akra built clone

  1. #1
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    Horsepower in a akra built clone

    Just wondering what the rough averages on the Dyno for akra build clone thanks!

  2. #2
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    Depending on who's Dyno it is on and how much numbers are fudged to sell the engine. My Dyno is calibrated to a predator engine at 3600 RPM to determine accuracy. My engines are in the high 12 to low 13 h.p.
    AKRA Northeast National Tech Instructor
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  3. #3
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    gotcha thanks!

  4. #4
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    Same here we use the predator also to set ours
    T&T Speed Shop 7042138771

  5. #5
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    My engines are in the high 12 to low 13 h.p
    So about the same as the best Animals. So why not let the play too?

    DK

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    I wish they would bring back the animal! That was a great powerplant.

  7. #7
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    Plenty of Animal classes still running here in central Pa.

  8. #8
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    Next to none here in Indiana

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by jhiner26 View Post
    I wish they would bring back the animal! That was a great powerplant.
    Short memories.
    Folks seem to forget how quickly the animal went to a $1600- $1700 motor back when WKA still had their dirt series.

    Say what you will about the clone, if you've got a little mechanical aptitude, and a 4 jawed hone to true up the bore, all you have to do is get a set of low tension rings and call the man to buy a $375 kit, if he's not too busy making kits for a lot more motor builders than will ever admit it.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Evans View Post
    Short memories.
    Folks seem to forget how quickly the animal went to a $1600- $1700 motor back when WKA still had their dirt series.

    Say what you will about the clone, if you've got a little mechanical aptitude, and a 4 jawed hone to true up the bore, all you have to do is get a set of low tension rings and call the man to buy a $375 kit, if he's not too busy making kits for a lot more motor builders than will ever admit it.
    Bob.... that is exactly what I tell them about the predator... with the world of information that is several key strokes away and with the help of people like that are on forums such as this... you can be very competitive with less than $250-$400 in an engine.. $100 of that is a flywheel that should be good for about forever... I do my own heads, carbs, blocks, set all my clearances... degree my cams all for basically free... $15 for a set of really good valve springs, $10 worth of gaskets and a $50 cam... everything else is just labor and time... getting the friction out... one other class we run allows a billet rod... so add $60 we are limited to 10.8 springs small base circle cams 28cc and 26cc chamber... .260 @ the retainer stock bore, stock stroke, stock rocker, .615 carb (pretty simple set of rules) any tires, gas or race gas, no methanol ... yes there are people that buy engines... most don't we are as fast as anyone and faster than most... learning as we go... we run 2 karts different classes and have a spare engine ready in the trailer for both... and i know I have less than $800 in all 4 engines (used and traded for parts)... way too many rules with clones... no tracks run them around here... way too many rules and all these officially trained tech guys make the sport NOT FUN and alot more expensive than it needs to be... but then we run for less than $100... the pits are full and people are having fun...

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don K View Post
    So about the same as the best Animals. So why not let the play too?

    DK
    As I've said before, give the clone the same size carb as the animal, give it meth like the animal, give it the same cam lift, and the same valve spring pressure. I expect most would take all that and not even complain about the extra 16cc the animal has.

    I suppose the Chinese could have copied the Briggs as easily as they copied the Honda, but they didn't.
    Since Dan retired, motorsports has been all about sucking up to sprint racers, and the old guard sprint racers don't even like 4 strokes that much.

    But, what can you do? As much as I hate this phrase- it is what it is. We can't go back, but it would sure be nice if someone could figure out a way forward.

    JMO

  12. #12
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    We can't go back but we can look back with eyes wide open and learn, then there are plenty that could figure out a way forward, but the key to it would be everyone sticking together keeping things uniform, there in lies the problem why it will never happen because everyone knows best.
    Heck it took 6 yrs for the two major series around here to allow the transponder pouch to be mounted at the same place.

  13. #13
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    Why not run methanol on the clones?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jhiner26 View Post
    Why not run methanol on the clones?
    Why run methanol in the clones?

    Actually any track that chose to do so, could allow methanol in the clones.
    Also, running methanol, runs up the cost of racing.

  15. #15
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    Methanol is easier to police. Smell, color and water test go a long way to keeping things fair.

    DK

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    If you think your engine costs are out of control, its not uncommon in the UK for front running GX160 honda cadet motors for 8-12 year olds to change hands for 3000 to 5000, and these are just select part motors!

    The same is now happening in the 50cc 2-stroke bambino class for 6 to 8 year olds...…4000 for a elect part weed-whacker engine is now becoming rather common

    Its gone beyond a joke, but as the old saying goes: something is worth what someone is willing to pay.....

  17. #17
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    I totally agree we should run alky in the clone class i have yet to see one gas tested here i seen alky tested all the time i live indiana and i would rather run a animal or flathead much rather run alky than pump gas u knw gas harder on engine than alky and who do like power and sound of the animals and flathead and the clone is full of rules and there changes every year when wka rules have been set in stone for decades bring back the animal bring back the flatheads bring back the wonderful smell of alcohol

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joshua11 View Post
    I totally agree we should run alky in the clone class i have yet to see one gas tested here i seen alky tested all the time i live indiana and i would rather run a animal or flathead much rather run alky than pump gas u knw gas harder on engine than alky and who do like power and sound of the animals and flathead and the clone is full of rules and there changes every year when wka rules have been set in stone for decades bring back the animal bring back the flatheads bring back the wonderful smell of alcohol
    Flatheads will never be back, so that leaves LO206 or animal. LO206 will have a very hard time taking over as a motor in the Carolinas, and lets face it, if it dont go in the Carolinas, it just aint going. People like to tinker, not have a motor that is a spec motor.
    The animal, you say rules been set in stone for decades, no it hasnt. Animal went through a ton of rule changes. And like 5 generation of just blocks. Lots of rule changes, same as the clone had been going through. You hear of more rule changes with the clone over the animal, thats because clone has been motor of choice and has been raced longer than the animal had been, and the newcomers hadnt heard of all these changes that happened all them yrs ago.

  19. #19
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    The animal, you say rules been set in stone for decades, no it hasnt. Animal went through a ton of rule changes. And like 5 generation of just blocks. Lots of rule changes, same as the clone had been going through. You hear of more rule changes with the clone over the animal, thats because clone has been motor of choice and has been raced longer than the animal had been, and the newcomers hadnt heard of all these changes that happened all them yrs ago.
    In addition, let's not forget that all those years ago, a blueprinted WKA animal was a $1600 motor.
    Lord only knows what one would cost now if they had developed into the engine of choice with the dirt racers.

  20. #20
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    ^ I suspect they wouldn't cost a whole lot more. Clones are at $1600 now and I remember many on here saying that would never happen. The rules need to stop changing. For that to happen, we need a sanctioning body (and importers) to look further than their current bottom line. When Briggs made an unapproved change (or error in manufacturing tolerances,) WKA held the line (most of the time) and the manufacturer had to clean up their act and make it within tolerance. With the Chinese tolerances being all over the place, the rules continue to be fudged here and there to accommodate these changes. Funny, isn't it, that these "changes" tend to be lighter, flow more air, produce more HP, etc. Don't think for a minute that it's by accident. It all but guarantees continued sales.

    The $1500+ flathead has come (and almost gone in most parts of the country.) Same with the animal. The reason that the cost of these engines hasn't increased much in the last 10 years is because there have been no rules changes to them. They still cost nearly the same to build new today as they did 10 years ago (and that's considering that there's a parts shortage and seriously smaller amount of builders!)
    Say what you want about those precious Chinese engines and their cheap parts; you can't say the rules haven't changed on them over the last 10 years. That is my belief on why the cost has climbed to the point it has in such a short time period. It took the flathead 20+ years to go from $360 blueprinted engines to where they ended up. The animal started out at $1200 and topped out at the same $1500. The clones started life at $300 (semi-blueprinted) and have met that same $1500 bar in 10 years or less. Yes, the animal went through 5 versions. How many did the clone go through, and are still evolving!

    Bob, You and I have had this discussion previously. I believe that the market price (price the majority of kart racers is willing to pay for a stock class engine,) tops out at around $1000. When the retail price of an engine goes above that price point, then more people leave the sport than come into it. We've seen this cycle repeat at least as far back as the McCullochs. Along comes a cheaper alternative and the masses are drawn to it, only to see the price increase with demand to the jumping off point again. The Predator appears to be that next sacrifice to the gods of speed. It's already available in different versions and each tend to get better as they are introduced. Imagine that.


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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Evans View Post
    Short memories.
    Folks seem to forget how quickly the animal went to a $1600- $1700 motor back when WKA still had their dirt series.

    Say what you will about the clone, if you've got a little mechanical aptitude, and a 4 jawed hone to true up the bore, all you have to do is get a set of low tension rings and call the man to buy a $375 kit, if he's not too busy making kits for a lot more motor builders than will ever admit it.
    What is the 375$ dollar kit you refer to?

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by SrFan3 View Post
    What is the 375$ dollar kit you refer to?
    the kit engine. available to any one.
    Plenty of site Sponsors sell them.
    Airtight Garage Est 1982
    Waller Racing
    Phantom Chassis
    Dover Power
    Paid 4 cycle subscriber

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarlsonMotorsports View Post
    ^ I suspect they wouldn't cost a whole lot more.
    As I said, I suspect they would be a good bit higher *if* they had become the engine of choice among dirt racers. The animal didn't, so it's hypothetical.

    The $1500+ flathead has come (and almost gone in most parts of the country.) Same with the animal. The reason that the cost of these engines hasn't increased much in the last 10 years is because there have been no rules changes to them.
    My thought is that it's because of the lack of widespread money races for those two motors. Demand for the fastest motor in the money classes is what drives up prices, not the rules. The guys buying these motors expect the motor builders to build them legal according to whatever the rules are.

    The Predator appears to be that next sacrifice to the gods of speed.
    Only as it's popularity increases, and the money classes start forming.

    IMO, the problem is not engine cost, or rules. Again, IMO, motor costs have remained fairly steady, comparatively.
    The problem is that all of the other costs required to run competitively have escalated to the point that there's probably only a double handful of teams that can afford to compete for the win in the large money classes at the big races.

    And a lot of the expense is indirect, traveling, food, motels, etc.
    Most folks really don't want to be adding up the total cost of racing a kart for a season. Motor costs are a drop in the bucket.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Evans View Post


    And a lot of the expense is indirect, traveling, food, motels, etc.
    Most folks really don't want to be adding up the total cost of racing a kart for a season. Motor costs are a drop in the bucket.
    When we were supporting a karting effort, we generally limited ourselves to the local and sometimes regional level. While that meant that engine costs were a bit more than a drop in the bucket, if you start with the costs of your engine and tire programs and your travel costs and carry it down to shop rags, an honest appraisal shows that even at lower levels there is still a lot of truth to that statement, imo.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outrider View Post
    When we were supporting a karting effort, we generally limited ourselves to the local and sometimes regional level. While that meant that engine costs were a bit more than a drop in the bucket, if you start with the costs of your engine and tire programs and your travel costs and carry it down to shop rags, an honest appraisal shows that even at lower levels there is still a lot of truth to that statement, imo.
    Hi Mike,
    Yeah, "drop in the bucket" is pretty much over the top and I shouldn't have put it that way.
    What I was trying to say is that a couple or three hundred dollars spread over a year isn't, or shouldn't be, a deal breaker.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by SrFan3 View Post
    What is the 375$ dollar kit you refer to?
    I was actually referring to one kit builder in particular. The hint would be stealth.

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