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Thread: 4-cycles in Sprint?

  1. #1
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    4-cycles in Sprint?

    Just for fun I'd like to get some opinions on this.
    Take away the 206 as an option for entertainment purposes only.
    Why is it that the WF or BW or any other 4-stroke motor hasn't quite fit the bill in sprint racing minus shifters?
    Politics? Following the "trendy" 2-stroke motor of the year? Legit power/cost differences?
    2-strokes definitely have their place but the cost of them can drive a lot of people away. So why aren't the other options being utilized as much? Again, the 206 did wonders for this but if we were to take that away for now I'd be interested to get opinions.

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    I think, over time, there have been a few motors that have fit in to sprint racing very well. I was not in karting soon enough to live it, but I have seen pictures of very full fields of flatheads in the 80's and 90's. Also, I remember in the late 90's, early 2000's, some pretty good fields of animals rumbling around the big street races (pun intended for those who catch that one). Now, LO206 is the one holding the 4 cycle flag, but it is doing it well. Every race i Have been to over the last 2 years, LO206 has been the biggest class. That is worth something.

    4 cycle will always be the class that goes up and down with the working man's money. Rich dad's and business men will always be able to afford TaGs and Shifters, but 4 cycle needs new guys and working guys to keep it going (just like the LO206 now).

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    4 Cycle Advanced User flattop1's Avatar
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    Politics.
    Tecumseh had a nice engine package it was either never accepted or properly promoted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mac_49 View Post
    ....Politics? Following the "trendy" 2-stroke motor of the year?
    I have never failed to run towards the front of the pack with some of the oldest, almost forgotten engines around.
    Did that with bikes, did it with karts.

    New rules allowing ever more expensive engines are to the benefit of people who think a 'spec' engine class will make them competitive,
    and importers/shops that can't stand to see someone running 20 year old engines, because there is little profit in it for them, and have their fingers too deep into rule making.

    There, I'm done ranting for the day......

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    People that sell kart stuff are not interested in promoting stuff for people that don't have money.

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    Other packages such as the Alcohol Animal and the Pro Gas animal have had decent fields at times. 200-300 entries at times for Gold Cup. I think the rules process has sort of stamped it out. The Alky animal required so much cam work that the engines were $1500 plus new. The Pro gas was more affordable, but depending on what rumor mill you listen to, the no porting rule was selectively enforced. Turned a lot of people away (allegedly) as this was happening right as the 206 came to be. People flocked to 206 so the specter of getting beat by an engine would go away. It really rekindled the spirit for racing for a lot of people, myself included.

    I personally enjoyed running the faster Alky and Pro Gas engines, it's just the ebb and flow of the very fluid 4 cycle sprint scene. I think 206 will be the ticket for 3-5 more years until a faster 4 cycle class comes back. I think once 206 is getting 25 karts a class from Jr 1 through Senior a pro gas or other variant will be reintroduced. There will be so many 206's with popped seals people will want to do something with them! Cam, Springs, Port the head, go racing!

    In my ever so humble opinion of course.

  7. #7
    4 Cycle Regular User Bob Kurkowski's Avatar
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    Money has always been the primary objective of the rule makers and the shops-importers and the success of the 206 hopefully is cutting hard into their narrow minded hustles. The buying of a engine then spending huge sums of money to get it to a spec that is not needed can be controlled and Briggs has proven it.

    There is no reason the World Formula did not and cannot succeed just like the LO206 has and if Briggs would fine tune the World Formula to a sealed engine package with just a little bit more performance so that there is a greater step between the 206 and the WF karting would have 2 really good choices for the racer young and old.

    Bob K.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Kurkowski View Post
    There is no reason the World Formula did not and cannot succeed just like the LO206 has and if Briggs would fine tune the World Formula to a sealed engine package with just a little bit more performance so that there is a greater step between the 206 and the WF karting would have 2 really good choices for the racer young and old.
    Just for curiosities sake, engine plants that have attempted this such as the UF Blue Wazoom (OHV) don't seem to be catching and why is that? <-- Don't get me wrong, it might be popular elsewhere but I don't see or hear about it much.
    I'm not advertising the BW but it's a recognized sealed spec motor through all sanctions. So with that, it's one I can pick at to maybe better understand or get an explanation why that didn't catch? Because it didn't come directly from B&S?

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    4 Cycle Regular User Bob Kurkowski's Avatar
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    Mac,

    Your question needs to be directed to the sanctioning bodies.

    Perhaps the WF and the BW concepts were just ahead of their time and now that people have seen how the 206 works they would be willing to move to a class with a higher performance engine run under the 206 format.

    Bob K.

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    I disagree with a lot of what sanctioning bodies do. However, I always find it interesting when people blame them for low kart counts or other things karting-wide. Sure, if one particular series is suffering, it might be due to their leadership. However, there are enough choices out there today that one sanctioning body alone is not going to ruin an engine package for anyone. We, the racers, vote with our wallets.

    Lets not forget that all this starts at the club level, as well. Are you blaming sanctioning bodies for your local club's lack of 4 cycle options too?

  11. #11
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    Fatboy,

    I have never seen anyone blaming anyone for a lack of options in any class when it comes to karting. I have also never seen anyone ruin someones engine package either, its quite the contrary.

    Have to ask... on the 'national' level who do you blame for the national problems ?

    Maybe its just a coincidence but a lot of local level tracks are running under a national organizations banner also.

    Bob K.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fatboy1dh View Post
    Lets not forget that all this starts at the club level, as well. Are you blaming sanctioning bodies for your local club's lack of 4 cycle options too?
    I'm in no way blaming our sanctioning body for lack of options. Honestly I'm curious if Bob K. has a point in that the BW, WF, and Animal classes were ahead of their time and now that the 206 has made such a big impact that more will start racing those motors? To see soooooooo many 2-stroke motor packages come and go trying to be the "next best thing" it just blows my mind why people would dish the money out for those motors not knowing if they'll even be a class the following year. Yet the WF, BW and Animals have been out consistently for years and are still outweighed in numbers to the 2-stroke classes.
    Obviously with the 206 that's not the case anymore but if all that it took was a seal to make it popular, that could've been taken care of a long time ago IMO and made a big impact on 4-cycle competition in sprint racing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fatboy1dh View Post
    I disagree with a lot of what sanctioning bodies do. However, I always find it interesting when people blame them for low kart counts or other things karting-wide. Sure, if one particular series is suffering, it might be due to their leadership. However, there are enough choices out there today that one sanctioning body alone is not going to ruin an engine package for anyone. We, the racers, vote with our wallets.

    Lets not forget that all this starts at the club level, as well. Are you blaming sanctioning bodies for your local club's lack of 4 cycle options too?
    I'm not sure I even know what "club level" is... face it we are 2-3 generations past kids being gear heads... couple that with the economic conditions of the last decade, entertainment options, urban sprawl, the 'heyday" of WWII vets, single income families, weekends off, expendable income... are gone... look at the numbers of people that bowl, Skate, Boat, participation numbers all way down...
    If someone was just "kinda" interested ... curious... thinking about it... and came here first... read all the posts... they would RUN... they would be more confused than before they started... Lack of national uniform rules... there are many more reasons NOT to race than too race, I try to takes other kids with us every trip to the track, I put them to work teaching them to check air pressure, explaining "stagger" and gear ratios... few of them ever even get on their phone the whole time there other than to take pictures... but as far as i know none of their parents have the ability to put them in a kart.. or the time it requires
    JMHO

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Kurkowski View Post
    Fatboy,

    I have never seen anyone blaming anyone for a lack of options in any class when it comes to karting. I have also never seen anyone ruin someones engine package either, its quite the contrary.

    Have to ask... on the 'national' level who do you blame for the national problems ?

    Maybe its just a coincidence but a lot of local level tracks are running under a national organizations banner also.

    Bob K.
    Do I blame WKA for some of their gold cup problems? Of course I do. However, there was not a market for it, either. Most folks who could afford to National race in the last 5 years can also afford the 2 cycle engine of the month. Lets face it. Man Cup is a lot sexier than Gold Cup. Could they have salvaged a national 4 cycle class or two? Sure, combine it with man cup or maybe a few other options, but there was no point. It was a dying series.

    But does the fall of Gold Cup mean that the 4 cycle National scene is dying too? Of course not. I see 206cup growing more and more every event. However, I am a firm believer that in today's karting atmosphere, you will never see huge "National" 4 cycle races. There is just no market to support it. The guys running 206 are working for their money. They are saving up over the winter to run a whole season at their local club or track and are having a blast doing it. They have no desire to spend 4-5 weekends budget on one "national" weekend. Nor do they want to take off work to travel or have a practice day. It is what it is. However, with 50+ per class at NCMP and 20+ per class with SIRA, 4 cycle racing in my area is booming. I say enjoy it while you can.

    As for your comment of local tracks running under "national organzation's banner". I disagree. Use their insurance? Sure. But most clubs/tracks, that is as far as the allegiance goes.

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    It was good fun and bit hair raising watching the 44 kart field at RIGP in 206 Heavy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fatboy1dh View Post
    I disagree with a lot of what sanctioning bodies do. However, I always find it interesting when people blame them for low kart counts or other things karting-wide. Sure, if one particular series is suffering, it might be due to their leadership. However, there are enough choices out there today that one sanctioning body alone is not going to ruin an engine package for anyone. We, the racers, vote with our wallets.

    Lets not forget that all this starts at the club level, as well. Are you blaming sanctioning bodies for your local club's lack of 4 cycle options too?
    I'm not sure I even know what "club level" is... face it we are 2-3 generations past kids being gear heads... couple that with the economic conditions of the last decade, entertainment options, urban sprawl, the 'heyday" of WWII vets, single income families, weekends off, expendable income... are gone... look at the numbers of people that bowl, Skate, Boat, participation numbers all way down...
    If someone was just "kinda" interested ... curious... thinking about it... and came here first... read all the posts... they would RUN... they would be more confused than before they started... Lack of national uniform rules... there are many more reasons NOT to race than too race, I try to takes other kids with us every trip to the track, I put them to work teaching them to check air pressure, explaining "stagger" and gear ratios... few of them ever even get on their phone the whole time there other than to take pictures... but as far as i know none of their parents have the ability to put them in a kart.. or the time it requires
    JMHO

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    This is just my opinion... 2 strokes power to weight is far better then most 4 stokes. People that can afford the 2 stokes will go 2 stroke! I would if I could... Personally the most 4 strokes engines we use are or once ment for a rototiller. Even brigs revamped there tiller motor for kart racing. Where is the true 4stroke race motor? With today's tec we could see 20hp from a 250cc d.o.h.c/s.o.h.c engine with a real fly wheel thats adjustable. Let it mount up threw the 3/4 clutch we all already have... Then promote it as a 2 stroke alternative!

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    when i started@12 I ran in american reed jr (91b1 Mac) with a paper route & lunch money I was 100% self funded even managed to buy a mac 92 ($99) at the time still remember my mom finding my cranks in the freezer and my bearings in the oven when I was building my engines, now i'm back racing $99 engines... go figure

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    4 Cycle Advanced User flattop1's Avatar
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    Good point about a powerful 4 stroke
    Biland produced a 4 stroke kart specific engine.
    Not suitable for 3/4 clutch though.
    Price point was no where near the 99 dollar mark.
    Decent power nothing outrageous.

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    Quote Originally Posted by flattop1 View Post
    Biland produced a 4 stroke kart specific engine.
    And it sounds like a race engine, not a damn lawnmower.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ponytl View Post
    when i started@12 I ran in american reed jr (91b1 Mac) with a paper route & lunch money I was 100% self funded even managed to buy a mac 92 ($99) at the time still remember my mom finding my cranks in the freezer and my bearings in the oven when I was building my engines, now i'm back racing $99 engines... go figure
    I started racing with a 91A like that.

    And until she passed, my wife would give me 'the look' when she caught me with engine parts in the oven, fridge, and dishwasher........

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    4 Cycle Advanced User flattop1's Avatar
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    Biland produced a 4 stroke kart specific engine.
    Quote Originally Posted by GoFast View Post
    And it sounds like a race engine, not a damn lawnmower.
    Again weight was no where near parrila.
    Race ready with radiator was right at 67 lbs with ours. Reed is 40 ish with jackshaft.
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    Quote Originally Posted by flattop1 View Post
    Good point about a powerful 4 stroke
    Biland produced a 4 stroke kart specific engine.
    Not suitable for 3/4 clutch though.
    Price point was no where near the 99 dollar mark.
    Decent power nothing outrageous.
    Let's be honest... A $99 motor is grate! And its grate for karting! But rules and the powers leading the pack turned it into a "spec" class and that killed that in my opinion... Im seeing rules pop up for the predator that in my opinion is what the clone should have been and stayed.

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    The 206 is nice but to me if I'm going to work 35 hours before tax to pay for a motor for my go kart I want the most bang for the buck! $600 ain't bad for a motor... Its actually a fare price! But as a manufacturer of "race" engines wouldn't u want to put something out there that says... This is a monster for $600! Not this is a pretty tiller motor we dressed up for $600..

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    4 Cycle Advanced User flattop1's Avatar
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    Agree with you there.
    If they put out a 25 hp engine for , 600.00 dollars it would be great.
    How could you not like that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GoFast View Post
    I started racing with a 91A like that.

    And until she passed, my wife would give me 'the look' when she caught me with engine parts in the oven, fridge, and dishwasher........
    i was never brave enough to even think about the dishwasher... but a crankshaft wrapped in foil in the freezer could go unnoticed

  27. #27
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    I see few if any who purchased a $600.00 LO206 on this site or any other sites complaining about their purchase. With the 206 it appears that the racers are not voting with their wallet and they are in fact voting with their heads and they have realized the fun and the value in the 206 that Briggs is offering. I might also add that Briggs is willing to stand behind the 206 concept and has gone to bat for the racers when cost escalating changes were proposed so Briggs have also brought rule stability with the 206.

    Back to the original post, I have friends who run CIK style sprint karts on long tracks in Arizona with World Formulas using Animal coils instead of the rev-limiting stock coil so they can rev them a bit more and they love them. Fast, easy to maintain, and cost effective when a rebuild is in order.

    Bob K.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ponytl View Post
    i was never brave enough to even think about the dishwasher...
    You should.
    Does a fantastic job on aluminum castings

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    Quote Originally Posted by GoFast View Post
    You should.
    Does a fantastic job on aluminum castings
    Any idea which soap or cleaning product you used.
    Cascade dish washing soap discolored 2 briggs blocks and left a white specked substance all over.
    clean but not the results I expected. never used it again due to that issue.
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    Your asking about something I haven't done in 10 years.....
    But it was probably Cascade.
    I was cleaning Yamaha engine parts, so maybe it's the alloy difference.
    Or maybe try less cleaner...
    But I never had any discoloration or corrosion (the white speckling) problems.

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