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Thread: 4-cycles in Sprint?

  1. #31
    4 Cycle Advanced User flattop1's Avatar
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    that time frame fits.
    likely was the material
    possibly no heated dry
    back to the ol wash tub.
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  2. #32
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    If you look back to the end of the flathead engines, they were allowed to be ported. This let the "haves and have-nots) be very close in enginetpower. You also had many different engine builders building engines, and traveling to many races.

    Sense then, you had huge changes in safety and economic circumstances, with a new engine package that tried to put the porting genii back back in the bottle. Add on that on the appearance of selective enforcement of the port rules. And the "clone" engines coming up and the engine builders flocked to that because they were allowed some freedom.

    Now, how to fix it? There may be no fixing it.

    One thing to look at is the way 4 cycles have been sold vs the way 2 cycles have been sold. 2 cycles are sold as packages. One stop shop. Depending what class you want to run. The old way 4 cycles were pushed, is Kart from one place, body from another, engine motor mount from 2 more places. I am sure people have put together packages and sold them that way, Margay is doing so with their Ignite chassis and races with the Arrive and drive (another thing HUGE with 2 cycle racers) So there is some looking at more of a 2 cycle solution for 4 cycle racers.

    Lastly and is nearly impossible to overcome, that is the 4 cycle racers are "lower class" than the 2 cycle racers. It is Easy to market the 2 cycles, Schumacher, vettle Hammilton all ran 2 cycles. The 4 cycles dont have that same heritage. So we dont have that same "stepping stone" selling point. perception will be hardest to fix.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Hastings View Post
    Lastly and is nearly impossible to overcome, that is the 4 cycle racers are "lower class" than the 2 cycle racers. It is Easy to market the 2 cycles, Schumacher, vettle Hammilton all ran 2 cycles. The 4 cycles dont have that same heritage. So we dont have that same "stepping stone" selling point. perception will be hardest to fix.
    All notes very well taken. Sounds like I'm just another poor man racing in a rich man's league here haha!

  4. #34
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    The hay days are gone and probably never to return in the world of sprint karting. To many factors now in play..................I hope I'm wrong and someone / organization can fix the current problems.
    I still hear all the time from young families looking at getting into some form of racing that karting looks unsafe with out head and neck protection and they would not even consider it for there little kids.

    Steve
    Last edited by steve baker; 01-24-2018 at 07:45 AM.

  5. #35
    4 Cycle Advanced User rainman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Hastings View Post
    If you look back to the end of the flathead engines, they were allowed to be ported. This let the "haves and have-nots) be very close in enginetpower. You also had many different engine builders building engines, and traveling to many races.

    Sense then, you had huge changes in safety and economic circumstances, with a new engine package that tried to put the porting genii back back in the bottle. Add on that on the appearance of selective enforcement of the port rules. And the "clone" engines coming up and the engine builders flocked to that because they were allowed some freedom.

    Now, how to fix it? There may be no fixing it.

    One thing to look at is the way 4 cycles have been sold vs the way 2 cycles have been sold. 2 cycles are sold as packages. One stop shop. Depending what class you want to run. The old way 4 cycles were pushed, is Kart from one place, body from another, engine motor mount from 2 more places. I am sure people have put together packages and sold them that way, Margay is doing so with their Ignite chassis and races with the Arrive and drive (another thing HUGE with 2 cycle racers) So there is some looking at more of a 2 cycle solution for 4 cycle racers.

    Lastly and is nearly impossible to overcome, that is the 4 cycle racers are "lower class" than the 2 cycle racers. It is Easy to market the 2 cycles, Schumacher, vettle Hammilton all ran 2 cycles. The 4 cycles dont have that same heritage. So we dont have that same "stepping stone" selling point. perception will be hardest to fix.
    That might be true, but do you know how much drivers pay on top teams to race 2 cycle FIA/CIK World Championship races? I'll just say put 20,000 per race and you might not even be on top. Go to local 2 cycle races around Europe and you'll see 30 entries adding all the classes available. That is not the way to promote karting. That is killing karting. I have been on both sides, 4 and 2 cycles, stock, open, asphalt, dirt, oval, road races, sprint, FIA/CIK, WKA, local... I reallt think currently 4 cycle dirt oval racing does the best job to keep karting alive. only problem I see i tire prepping and the need to have way too many tires, but most can afford to win at local or even higher level, something impossible in the 2 cycle world. JMO

  6. #36
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    20k is a lot, but then you have guys like Lance Stroll... lots of money there...

    I think the idea needs to be how do you make Karting a place you want to be? A place to end up. Its a lot of fun and most bang for the buck. Pushing 4 cycle as cheap, and cheap is a relative term.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Hastings View Post
    2 cycles are sold as packages
    Never were before the whole touch and go BS.

  8. #38
    helmet painter and racer Ted Hamilton's Avatar
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    Copperhead US820's are available....as are stock KT-100's at 18hp... Good engine choices exist, but not sensible and average-Joe minded rules and orgs. All IMO. The sheer amount of class and engine choices is daunting to even experienced karters, as is the pay-to-play-org/manufacturer unholy alliance...Engine-of-the-year-club instead of pipe-of-the-week club.

  9. #39
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    Ted, the Copperhead was discontinued due to lack of interest.
    Shame, it had a lot of possibilities.
    Now they just have the 820, which can be good, fun engine also.

    Pipe of the week is a myth.....
    Never had a problem pulling any old pos pipe off the shelf, figuring out what I needed as far as section lengths using Gordon Jennings pipe formula, maybe cutting a cone off to lengthen/shorten a mid section, and running it.

    The myth came from people wanting the rewards, but didn't have skill, or worth ethic to go fast.
    Which led us to this damn touchy and feely Bull S# called TaG.
    If the little wimps want everything to be equal, so only their driving skills matter,
    then they should stay home and play video racing.

  10. #40
    4 Cycle Advanced User Bergh223's Avatar
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    There are a metric TON of choices out there. There is no shortage of ways to go karting. From big budgets to showing up in the back of your van, there is a track, a class, and a package for you. Especially with 4 cycle sprint. "We" had no problem paying $12-1700 for a flathead to go run gold cup. If you wanted to build your engine yourself you could, but you didn't go complaining about the rules. You just tried to get better. Same with the alcohol animal.

    Switching to Animals hurt, but we still had 20 karts a class. Then we went to gas with no porting, and the Seniors stayed pretty healthy for a few years. The only thing I noticed was the kids. Jr classes had 5-8 karts a class. Kids weren't showing up to race anymore. You no longer had Jr's moving up to Sr's to replace the old guard that stopped traveling due to starting young families of their own. My daughter is in soccer, parents are paying 4 figures for a single camp to have their kid get better. You can get a used turn key 206 for that much! Between that and sitting home and playing xbox, they just don't see karting as the fun thing to do! I don't think its budget per say, and I don't really believe its the rules packages when we are talking about the local level.

    I think Barry made a great point. We have enough classes and options, we need to get back to making it the event to be at each week. That, is 100% on us. I know I could be better about running locally and walking around and shaking hands. I tend to relax and just enjoy the sunshine between heats. We need to just bring people along to check it out and try to generate interest. Maybe put the slowest slide in and let some kids go out and run a few practice laps. Between all the people commenting on this thread, I know we have enough well loved equipment to put together some affordable packages for people looking to get in.

    Just my opinion!
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  11. #41
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    Yea I have a pair of U.S. Motor Power modified 820s on my vintage Dual Rear Engine kart. They are a good solid performer and just fine to use in the VKA's C-Open dual rear. Good power and torque out of them on methanol.

  12. #42
    4 Cycle Advanced User rainman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoFast View Post
    Never were before the whole touch and go BS.
    Where is the like button? Lol I completely agree. I will even add something else: TAG not only focus on driver skills, I'm=n fact they require less skill than old FIA/CIK Direct Drive classes, but sells you an overpriced package where the only skill is money. Money could also buy the best back in DD drive days, but there was more room for those who understood the whole package and could work on it. Today is more about promo, image and all that mess. You can be on top of the racing World with TAGs without so many skill given you are at the right team with the right connections. You could get to that teams with money in the past, but you wouldn't stay on top driving those karts and engines without being one of the best drivers. 20 years later at many sprint kart tracks in Europe the old SA rotaries and even reed ICAs still hold track records. TAGs are just a joke.

  13. #43
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    When cleaning with detergent if you are getting white specs and discoloration on alum your detergent has some caustic in it.

  14. #44
    4 Cycle Advanced User flattop1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by racer View Post
    When cleaning with detergent if you are getting white specs and discoloration on alum your detergent has some caustic in it.
    Thanks !
    I bet your right.
    Never happened with regular ol dish soap.

  15. #45
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    For those not really in the loop a Copperhead west bend was just the same as the today fully modified West Bend 820 like we run in vintage. Just we now have about 4 people building them instead of one.

  16. #46
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    US engines is no longer making them, or the parts.
    I think Dave Bonbright (Enginemasters) bought up all of them.

    The Copperhead had a larger head, but in open who cares.
    I'm putting a DAP T80 head on my 820 open, and throwing the shroud, and large flywheel away.

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