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Thread: Can anybody explain to me?

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by alvin l nunley View Post
    you don't believe 22 HP out-of-the-box?
    I believe that Al.
    The 4stroke went from 22 hp down to 20 hp.

  2. #32
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    Guys, here is a link to a good example of what I'm talking about....

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/MY09-IAME-Pa...RYiWgV&vxp=mtr

    30 hp, useable range close to 10K, user friendly and very long life. I've run my Leopard around 30 hours spread over nearly 9 years and have never put a carb kit in the Tilly HL334. I lost a big end rod bearing at around 12 hours and I had consistently turned the motor to the rev limit of 17K. After replacing the rod, pin , bearing etc I decided to gear to limit the motor to 16,500 and it has never been apart since other than to remove the head to look around. The quality of the build of the Leopard is the best I have ever seen in a kart motor. I've worked on motors with 25 hours running gas with castor at 16/1 and there is no measurable wear in the bore! The only thing that ever breaks on them is the starter and it can be removed if not running in a spec class and the engines can be started the old fashioned way with a regular external starter.
    Steve O'Hara

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo925 View Post
    What does the usable rpm range have to do with anything? Those 100's that are making 22hp on a pipe are probably quite peaky and make "usable" power from 12000-16000 with the peak power at 15000ish. A 4 stroke, also making 20ish hp will likely be very peaky as well. It will probably build "usable" power from 5000-10,000 with peak around 8500. So we're still talking about the same 4000-5000 usable rpm sweep. Either way, final gearing is going to determine how it applies that power. On the same track, they will require very different ratios because of that rpm difference but essentially the same results. Each platform builds it's power different. That's the joy of having options.
    Jimbo, I'm afraid your knowledge of two strokes, and their power band, is quite limited. The KT 100, with a clutch pipe, reaches peak torque at about 10,300 RPM with peak horsepower at about 11,400 RPM. Peak rpm with that setup is easily 15,400 RPM. Now that's with a clutch and a clutch pipe. With direct drive, and a direct drive pipe, on the same track, the KT 100 can, reportedly, reach 17,000 RPM. Ask Pete Muller! He has posted many times about the performance of his direct drive KT 100. Specialty, purpose built, kart engines, like those from Europe, exceed even those numbers.

    I'm speaking from experience, not bench racing, both on the track and on the dyno!
    From the desk of Al Nunley 512-630-6215
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  4. #34
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    4 strokes are the engine of choice for most karters! It's not the costs, or any of those peripheral reasons.

    I would never work on two strokes,and my son would never drive one.

    Freedom of choice is very much at work in the kart world.
    My view is that you make your choice and run it.

    For one reason or another, not well defined, 4 strokes are also more fun to listen to, and to watch race.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by PD Engines View Post
    For one reason or another, not well defined, 4 strokes are also more fun for us to watch race.
    Whatever turns you on,....... right! The majority of the karting world, not just the USA, tends, on average, to disagree with you.

    I have no problem whatsoever with your choice of engines, or your choice in what you want to watch, none whatsoever, but you've got to realize others have their choices too. For the most part, people like speed, the faster the better, and two cycles, in general, just go faster. Maybe not in your world, as I've heard, but generally it's true.
    From the desk of Al Nunley 512-630-6215
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  6. #36
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    I just don't like the sound of a 2 stroke.

  7. #37
    Everyone here is comparing apples to oranges. I keep hearing a stock 2 stock is going to make more power at less cost than a 4 stock of double the displacement.

    Economy of scale anyone? Turning 17k rpm is expensive to do and expensive to produce. Your bearings are more expensive, your cranks have to have a couple tenths runout max, you can use aluminum rods, your case has to have just as small of a runout, etc. Thats all expensive.

    My point was stock for stock a 4 stock imo would be cheaper if the 4 strock was produced in quantity.

    Al, have you ever raced a tag engine? Especially a leopard? I challenge youbto find someone who has significant time like you suggest on a crank. At max you will find someone with an old mag side crank half.

    These engines are so expensive due to the quantities. You can go out and buy an lsa making 580hp for 10k ready to drop in a car.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by alvin l nunley View Post
    Whatever turns you on,....... right! The majority of the karting world, not just the USA, tends, on average, to disagree with you.

    I have no problem whatsoever with your choice of engines, or your choice in what you want to watch, none whatsoever, but you've got to realize others have their choices too. For the most part, people like speed, the faster the better, and two cycles, in general, just go faster. Maybe not in your world, as I've heard, but generally it's true.
    I should clarify that I concern myself only with racing in the USA. What Europe does, or does not do, karting or politically, is of little interest to me.
    Sorry If I did not make that clear, before this.

  9. #39
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    Everything about karting is so overpriced that it is breathtaking.
    We pay $50-60 bucks for a $6 tire.....which has not been improved upon since the 40's.
    Pay as much for a single piston, as you can buy a set of 8, with rings......is worse than highway
    robbery. Look at Jegs catalog, and check the price of auto race pistons, which begin at a 4" bore.
    Check out the price of roller rockers, of many ratio's for race cars. They come in at around 85% cheaper.

    The entire structure of kart parts pricing is deadly in it's effect upon kart racing participation.
    Had I looked into this when in my 40's instead of my 70's I'da sure shaken up the cost structure for kart parts.

    A shame no one does that, beginning tomorrow.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by PD Engines View Post
    Everything about karting is so overpriced that it is breathtaking.
    We pay $50-60 bucks for a $6 tire.....which has not been improved upon since the 40's.
    Pay as much for a single piston, as you can buy a set of 8, with rings......is worse than highway
    robbery. Look at Jegs catalog, and check the price of auto race pistons, which begin at a 4" bore.
    Check out the price of roller rockers, of many ratio's for race cars. They come in at around 85% cheaper.

    The entire structure of kart parts pricing is deadly in it's effect upon kart racing participation.
    Had I looked into this when in my 40's instead of my 70's I'da sure shaken up the cost structure for kart parts.

    A shame no one does that, beginning tomorrow.
    Sheer volume allows the prices for automotive parts to be lower. It is more economical to produce 10,000 of something common, than to produce 100 of a specialty item. (initial setup, along with volume manufacturing techniques)
    Specialized, niche market, for low volume without much competition makes for higher prices.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by alvin l nunley View Post
    Whatever turns you on,....... right! The majority of the karting world, not just the USA, tends, on average, to disagree with you.

    I have no problem whatsoever with your choice of engines, or your choice in what you want to watch, none whatsoever, but you've got to realize others have their choices too. For the most part, people like speed, the faster the better, and two cycles, in general, just go faster. Maybe not in your world, as I've heard, but generally it's true.
    Al 2 strokes may have been popular back in the old days, but these days 4 strokes outnumber 2 strokes by a big margin, probably 4:1 or more if I'm not mistaken, especially in the USA. Only place you see 2 strokes on dirt is in UAS/RWYB, and on pavement only in Sprint or Open/UAS racing...other than that it is entirely 4 strokes for the stock classes, especially on dirt. I'd love to try a 2 stroke on dirt and have thought about it, but the ones I race against are constantly having some kind of issues on the track whether it be belt drive problems or stuck pistons, and are usually what is holding up the races where I race. The 4 strokes are just more reliable and can take a beating without as many issues in my opinion. I see alot of guys going to MX engines for RWYB, mostly 450 4 strokes or 250 2 strokes. I'd like to try an old 80's model kick start CR500 Honda engine, problem is that kind of power would be hell to hook up on the small tracks where I race lol

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by PD Engines View Post
    Everything about karting is so overpriced that it is breathtaking.
    We pay $50-60 bucks for a $6 tire.....which has not been improved upon since the 40's.
    Pay as much for a single piston, as you can buy a set of 8, with rings......is worse than highway
    robbery. Look at Jegs catalog, and check the price of auto race pistons, which begin at a 4" bore.
    Check out the price of roller rockers, of many ratio's for race cars. They come in at around 85% cheaper.

    The entire structure of kart parts pricing is deadly in it's effect upon kart racing participation.
    Had I looked into this when in my 40's instead of my 70's I'da sure shaken up the cost structure for kart parts.

    A shame no one does that, beginning tomorrow.
    I can see what you mean Paul, but at the same time you have to think, the kart industry is so much smaller than the car industry, and kart parts are produced in far less quantities than the car parts. They can sell the car pistons and rockers that cheap because they can run big production runs of them and produce/sell more of them. With kart parts they only make small production runs so prices are going to be higher

  13. #43
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    Yes Al, my 2 stroke knowledge is limited. But my knowledge is based on real world, on track, in the dirt, experience. So when you say a 2 stroke 100cc making 22hp is so dirt cheap and runs 16000 rpm, I have a very different view on that purpose. In a world of all 100cc 2 strokes, you make a valid argument. In a world of asphalt Sprint Racing, you may make a valid argument. But in my experience, on dirt, UAS Racing, your argument is invalid as you are just comparing, apples to oranges to bananas to carrots. I can pretty much go anywhere in the country and find some sort of big Mx 450 and get it mounted on a kart for less than 2500 bucks. It makes 50+ hp in stock configuration and will turn 12000 rpm all day everyday for many races. So I feel like your 100cc expense to power is invalid. If you want to compare your 100 to a clone or animal, fine, that's the winner 8 days a week. However, I can piece together a clone that will turn 9-10000 rpm and make near 25hp for less than 1500 bucks. So while my 2stroke knowledge is limited, real world experience is not. Hp is hp. How you apply it is what makes the fast guys fast

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo925 View Post
    Yes Al, my 2 stroke knowledge is limited. But my knowledge is based on real world, on track, in the dirt, experience. So when you say a 2 stroke 100cc making 22hp is so dirt cheap and runs 16000 rpm, I have a very different view on that purpose. In a world of all 100cc 2 strokes, you make a valid argument. In a world of asphalt Sprint Racing, you may make a valid argument. But in my experience, on dirt, UAS Racing, your argument is invalid as you are just comparing, apples to oranges to bananas to carrots. I can pretty much go anywhere in the country and find some sort of big Mx 450 and get it mounted on a kart for less than 2500 bucks. It makes 50+ hp in stock configuration and will turn 12000 rpm all day everyday for many races. So I feel like your 100cc expense to power is invalid. If you want to compare your 100 to a clone or animal, fine, that's the winner 8 days a week. However, I can piece together a clone that will turn 9-10000 rpm and make near 25hp for less than 1500 bucks. So while my 2stroke knowledge is limited, real world experience is not. Hp is hp. How you apply it is what makes the fast guys fast
    Jimmy, your knowledge of 2 strokes may/maynot be limited but, one thing is certain, Al's knowledge definitely is limited and he is too hard headed to want to learn.....

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by W5R View Post
    Al 2 strokes may have been popular back in the old days, but these days 4 strokes outnumber 2 strokes by a big margin, probably 4:1 or more if I'm not mistaken, especially in the USA.
    Four stroke popularity is mostly an Eastern USA thing. On the West Coast, and Southwest, two strokes rule. I've only been to two tracks in Texas (paved Sprint tracks) but they were both predominantly two strokes. In California, at the only dirt track I ever visited, in fact I flagged it, there were no four strokes. Not that I can remember anyway. Things may have changed some, but I'm not aware of it.

    I know that four strokes are big in the South, but in the rest of the country, two strokes are very plentiful. I can only guess that your view of the karting world in the USA is limited.

    You talk about people, in the South, having troubles with two strokes, and I can understand that being as how they have few knowledgeable people to consult with. I'll admit, in my beginning years of racing two strokes (all McCullough's) I stuck a few, but I never stuck a Yamaha, or any other free air two cycles, such as, Komet, BM, Pirelli, HPV. I take it back, I did stick my K78 the first time I raced it, but that was because I put the wrong gas (no oil) in the tank. Still, with a little quick attention to the piston (it's easy to pull the barrel and work on the piston) and won all three heats.
    From the desk of Al Nunley 512-630-6215
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  16. #46
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    I'm not in the south Al, but you are right it is all 4 strokes down there other than open racing, which is mostly 4 strokes also actually. I'm in the central Midwest, and there are absolutely no stock 2 stroke classes anywhere here either. I'm not against them. I'd love to hear a field full of 2 strokes on the track

  17. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by W5R View Post
    I'm not in the south Al, but you are right it is all 4 strokes down there other than open racing, which is mostly 4 strokes also actually. I'm in the central Midwest, and there are absolutely no stock 2 stroke classes anywhere here either. I'm not against them. I'd love to hear a field full of 2 strokes on the track
    you don't see them because you are on dirt.

  18. #48
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    Dyno will get you the numbers you want depending n setup and many other factors. Tha numbers for 4 cycle engines are clearly inflated. I have messed and played with clones myself and have had several open clones I have raced both on dirt and asphalt, not just at sprint tracks even at WKA Road racing Nationals. The open clones were way less reliable than any stock 100 cc engine and not even more reliable than any of my open 131 cc Sudams or other open 2 cycles I have owned. Any stock air cooled reed ICA 2 cycle from the late 90s like the last PCRs or Reedjets from Parilla will give you anything you want to take in any dyno between 26 to 29 hp on gas, and again STOCK on a 24 mm carb. Choose the number you want and compare with an open (not stock) clone or othe r4 cycle. I don't doubt 22 hp form an open clone, I just doubt you can get the engine and then the parts for the amounts you name because I have put them together myself and that was like 3 years ago so I am sure prices are even higher now. Compare (on dirt ovals) the amount of money people have spent to build 4 cycles in the Limited Outlaw class in SC with the 2 small cycles running in the same class way cheaper. And by the way lately if you look at what is for sale and what people are buying for Unlimited All Stars most of the 450s and Jawas are for sale and people are looking for 250s (2 cycles). 450s and Jawas are not more reliable than 250s for example. Any racing engine pushed to the limits can be unreliable, 2 or 4 cycle. Stock is reliable, and stock a 2 cycle will offer more power given same engine size. With that said I like both like I like Wankels or any other thing than can be raced.

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    Quote Originally Posted by manyfunnies View Post
    you don't see them because you are on dirt.
    There are no asphalt kart tracks in Kentucky, or any of the surrounding states that i know of. I see them in Open classes, just no 2 stroke only classes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rainman View Post
    Dyno will get you the numbers you want depending n setup and many other factors. Tha numbers for 4 cycle engines are clearly inflated. I have messed and played with clones myself and have had several open clones I have raced both on dirt and asphalt, not just at sprint tracks even at WKA Road racing Nationals. The open clones were way less reliable than any stock 100 cc engine and not even more reliable than any of my open 131 cc Sudams or other open 2 cycles I have owned. Any stock air cooled reed ICA 2 cycle from the late 90s like the last PCRs or Reedjets from Parilla will give you anything you want to take in any dyno between 26 to 29 hp on gas, and again STOCK on a 24 mm carb. Choose the number you want and compare with an open (not stock) clone or othe r4 cycle. I don't doubt 22 hp form an open clone, I just doubt you can get the engine and then the parts for the amounts you name because I have put them together myself and that was like 3 years ago so I am sure prices are even higher now. Compare (on dirt ovals) the amount of money people have spent to build 4 cycles in the Limited Outlaw class in SC with the 2 small cycles running in the same class way cheaper. And by the way lately if you look at what is for sale and what people are buying for Unlimited All Stars most of the 450s and Jawas are for sale and people are looking for 250s (2 cycles). 450s and Jawas are not more reliable than 250s for example. Any racing engine pushed to the limits can be unreliable, 2 or 4 cycle. Stock is reliable, and stock a 2 cycle will offer more power given same engine size. With that said I like both like I like Wankels or any other thing than can be raced.
    Different people can build the same engine and spend different amounts of money to accomplish the same exact thing, because everyones skill sets are different. I can do all of my own labor, welding and building, the only thing done by someone else is sleeve/bore jobs, the rest i can do myself. If you arent capable of that i can understand why you wouldnt be able to build a competitive Open clone/Honda for the same cost i can. I compete in RWYB with open small blocks on a regular basis, against sudams and all sorts of 2 strokes, Stars, 450's and Jawa's, even a Wankle (Lamb), alot of those being regular UAS competitors in OVUAS and TNUAS in the area's i race in and i have no problem competing with these guys using an open small block that i have less than $2000 in, all cast no billet head or block, just a simple big bore stroker. Im not saying i can take that same engine to the southeast somewhere and compete in UAS, i know thats pretty unlikely, im just saying that on the small low bite tracks in this reigon, at the weight i race at (300-310 race ready)that i can compete with a 35hp small block against much bigger stuff. Honestly though it is getting to the point here where im either going to have to go to something bigger with more power, or go back to stock class racing eventually, because it is getting harder and harder to stay competitive with the small blocks against these MX engines that everyone seems to be going to. Small block Open classes are almost dead in my area, it is all RWYB basically, most seem to be going to 450's or 250 2 strokes....i would be leaning more towards the 250 2 stroke myself.

    There was a guy who showed up last weekend at my local track for a big money race, he came all the way from Michigan to KY with what looked like a new Margay sprint chassis to race RWYB on a 1/5 mile dirt track, using a 440cc 2 stroke dual carbed snowmobile engine....and this guy was not able to do anything with that kind of power on that racetrack, he spun about every 2 laps and would go down the straits nearly sideways every lap trying to hook up, i have never seen anything like that since i have been racing karts and it blows my mind that someone would even want to try to hook up that kind of horsepower on a dirt track, he was getting killed by everyone else. The guy who won was Chris Crider of the OVUAS, who was on i think a 131 sudam, which ended up beating a 500 Jawa and several other big engines that weekend, Crider's little 2 stroke just hooked up and checked out, plain and simple, and was the smallest engine in the race....that goes to show that on dirt, more power is not always what wins races, but alot of these guys dont seem to get that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by W5R View Post
    There are no asphalt kart tracks in Kentucky, or any of the surrounding states that i know of. I see them in Open classes, just no 2 stroke only classes.
    Sorry just not accurate. Surrounding states would include Indiana, Ohio, Illinois and Missouri. All have asphalt kart tracks.

  22. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by W5R View Post
    Different people can build the same engine and spend different amounts of money to accomplish the same exact thing, because everyones skill sets are different. I can do all of my own labor, welding and building, the only thing done by someone else is sleeve/bore jobs, the rest i can do myself. If you arent capable of that i can understand why you wouldnt be able to build a competitive Open clone/Honda for the same cost i can. I compete in RWYB with open small blocks on a regular basis, against sudams and all sorts of 2 strokes, Stars, 450's and Jawa's, even a Wankle (Lamb), alot of those being regular UAS competitors in OVUAS and TNUAS in the area's i race in and i have no problem competing with these guys using an open small block that i have less than $2000 in, all cast no billet head or block, just a simple big bore stroker. Im not saying i can take that same engine to the southeast somewhere and compete in UAS, i know thats pretty unlikely, im just saying that on the small low bite tracks in this reigon, at the weight i race at (300-310 race ready)that i can compete with a 35hp small block against much bigger stuff. Honestly though it is getting to the point here where im either going to have to go to something bigger with more power, or go back to stock class racing eventually, because it is getting harder and harder to stay competitive with the small blocks against these MX engines that everyone seems to be going to. Small block Open classes are almost dead in my area, it is all RWYB basically, most seem to be going to 450's or 250 2 strokes....i would be leaning more towards the 250 2 stroke myself.

    There was a guy who showed up last weekend at my local track for a big money race, he came all the way from Michigan to KY with what looked like a new Margay sprint chassis to race RWYB on a 1/5 mile dirt track, using a 440cc 2 stroke dual carbed snowmobile engine....and this guy was not able to do anything with that kind of power on that racetrack, he spun about every 2 laps and would go down the straits nearly sideways every lap trying to hook up, i have never seen anything like that since i have been racing karts and it blows my mind that someone would even want to try to hook up that kind of horsepower on a dirt track, he was getting killed by everyone else. The guy who won was Chris Crider of the OVUAS, who was on i think a 131 sudam, which ended up beating a 500 Jawa and several other big engines that weekend, Crider's little 2 stroke just hooked up and checked out, plain and simple, and was the smallest engine in the race....that goes to show that on dirt, more power is not always what wins races, but alot of these guys dont seem to get that.
    Before you were talking a competitive 4 stroke for $850 and I said that wouldn't make it. Now you admit you have something less than $2000 on your engine. Well for $2000 you can get a good used 131 cc Sudam with much more power, and rebuild a top end for a Sudam if you do it yourself (much easier than rebuilding an open 4 cycle) is not gonna be more expensive either (piston $118 plus bearing, plus pin and you can even work the cylinder if you just have the right hone, otherwise it is a cheap work form any shop). Again I love racing, I don't care what it is, but I can't see why 4 cycles are cheaper.

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    Quite frankly, if you've gotta' seriously concern yourself over $100 one way or the other, then it probably would be wise to stay away from kart racing.

    Drive someone else's kart, and spend OPM whenever possible .... might be a good solution.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PD Engines View Post
    Quite frankly, if you've gotta' seriously concern yourself over $100 one way or the other, then it probably would be wise to stay away from kart racing.

    Drive someone else's kart, and spend OPM whenever possible .... might be a good solution.
    I don't believe that was the point at all.

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    I will take a 2 stoke any day, the feel of the clutch engaging somewhere around 9500 - 10,000 rpm at full throttle and the seat hitting you in the back cannot be duplicated by a 4 stroke,, jmo

  26. #56
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    Since we are comparing: the following video is a practice day at an asphalt track.I am on my completely stock Italsistem from the late 90s and you can compare it to the "stock" clones by watching footage from 3'15'' to 3'45'' and from 5'45'' to 6'35''. I bought this engine used as it is for $400. It doesn't even have a clutch, direct drive. Those clones are obviously called stock though they are not as we all know. New well over $1,000 but even used would be over the price I paid for my little 100 cc rotary 2 stroke. If you can think they are still get them cheaper used just add the clutch which I don't even need here on my 2 stroke. I think the difference is about 10'' per lap on 45'' laps or so. Mine 100cc on gas. 4 stroke " stock" clones on alky at over 200 cc. I am running 17,000 rpm on this engine. I can put up to 21,000 rpm but then it would be expensive since I would need a piston for everyday I run it, but at 17,000 max rpm I have already put more than 5 days on it and still has so much compression that you need a 4 wheeler to bump start it. Apples to apples? Lol. A piston at something over a $100, a cage and piston pin for $30 a piece, $200 total and I can run it as long as a "stock" clone. Again I enjoyed much putting together open clones but the ones i have run at this track are still over 5" slower than this mean rotary and much more expensive to keep together. I also run dirt and since I admit most small dirt ovals favor small 4 strokes some way you can run as fast as an open clone with a stock air cooled 100cc 2 stroke. Get yourself an early 2000s water cooled 100cc ICA stock on gas over 30 hp. Even faster. Keep a 2 cycle rich on gas and it will keep together for a long time.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhpA5V1sxFs&t=354s

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    Quote Originally Posted by rainman View Post
    Before you were talking a competitive 4 stroke for $850 and I said that wouldn't make it. Now you admit you have something less than $2000 on your engine. Well for $2000 you can get a good used 131 cc Sudam with much more power, and rebuild a top end for a Sudam if you do it yourself (much easier than rebuilding an open 4 cycle) is not gonna be more expensive either (piston $118 plus bearing, plus pin and you can even work the cylinder if you just have the right hone, otherwise it is a cheap work form any shop). Again I love racing, I don't care what it is, but I can't see why 4 cycles are cheaper.
    I have 3 different Open engines, for different tracks. Do you see what i am saying? Predator/Honda with $850 in it, limited animal with around $1200 in it, and open animal with $2000 or less in it, all 3 will and have compete in RWYB on the small low bite tracks where i race against much bigger engines. Follow me on facebook if you are on there and have trouble believing what i am saying. I just completely rebuilt my Open animal for around $400, $300 of that was sleeving the block and the new piston i chose, which i did not have to do, but did for more power. I ran 50-60 races last season on the big animal with the only change being a head gasket once...they can be made to be reliable when maintained, just as easily as a 2 stroke in the right hands. Notice i did say in the right hands, im not saying your average Joe will be able to build or rebuild his own engines for less than you can buy them for, i know that isnt the case. Some people have $3000 or more in open small blocks, which blows my mind honestly, but they are the ones paying for all the work rather than learning to do it themselves. I knew nothing about these engines 5 years ago when i started with them, now i can build one from scratch in a couple days time, doing all the work myself other than sleeving blocks and machining heads. Anyone can do it if they do the research and take the time to learn it, and i stand by that.

    Here is a video of one of the last races on a 1/5 mile track with decent bite, against a field that had a 500cc Jawa (black 00), 80hp Wankel of Zac lamb (red/grey 431), CR250 (orange 07), an all billet Animal (black X), yz250 (White 145), and several other 2 strokes and small 4 strokes. The one on pole was an open animal with a 15 year old new open driver, i was the white kart starting 4th, one of the only flat karts in the race, with the open Honda/Predator. This proves that when set up right, the little small blocks will compete with anything out there, its not all about power, its how consistently you can put down the power. That Jawa had everyone beat on horsepower but could not put it down even on a good bite track. That 80hp Wankel of Lamb's was wicked, but that small block of mine was right on him, he wasnt pulling away. My chain worked its way loose and started skipping teeth as the race went on, until i finally got wrecked by someone trying to drive the black X kart with one hand, with a broken throttle cable, which ended the race with only about 6 green flag laps because of other drivers giving the driver of the black kart an ass chewing for the way he was driving.

    https://www.facebook.com/DoubleDeuce...9170376611928/

    here is another RWYB race, with the limited animal, same kart as i was on in the other race. Started 4th, finished 3rd...i was just plain out powered and wasnt handling very well in that one, there were several Sudam's in that field that night, all were behind me. You might reconize a few of them....Ed Kiskaden in the black #22 and Chris Crider in the white #29 were both on Sudams, me on a little limited animal, since my Open animal wasnt finished at the time. Same Jawa and same Billet animal as the last race, out front, along with Lambs Wankel. You'll have to skip to about the halfway point in this video to see the open feature, this video is all the classes for the night together.

    https://www.facebook.com/DoubleDeuce...3677361494563/

  28. #58
    4 Cycle Advanced User rainman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by W5R View Post
    I have 3 different Open engines, for different tracks. Do you see what i am saying? Predator/Honda with $850 in it, limited animal with around $1200 in it, and open animal with $2000 or less in it, all 3 will and have compete in RWYB on the small low bite tracks where i race against much bigger engines. Follow me on facebook if you are on there and have trouble believing what i am saying. I just completely rebuilt my Open animal for around $400, $300 of that was sleeving the block and the new piston i chose, which i did not have to do, but did for more power. I ran 50-60 races last season on the big animal with the only change being a head gasket once...they can be made to be reliable when maintained, just as easily as a 2 stroke in the right hands. Notice i did say in the right hands, im not saying your average Joe will be able to build or rebuild his own engines for less than you can buy them for, i know that isnt the case. Some people have $3000 or more in open small blocks, which blows my mind honestly, but they are the ones paying for all the work rather than learning to do it themselves. I knew nothing about these engines 5 years ago when i started with them, now i can build one from scratch in a couple days time, doing all the work myself other than sleeving blocks and machining heads. Anyone can do it if they do the research and take the time to learn it, and i stand by that.

    Here is a video of one of the last races on a 1/5 mile track with decent bite, against a field that had a 500cc Jawa (black 00), 80hp Wankel of Zac lamb (red/grey 431), CR250 (orange 07), an all billet Animal (black X), yz250 (White 145), and several other 2 strokes and small 4 strokes. The one on pole was an open animal with a 15 year old new open driver, i was the white kart starting 4th, one of the only flat karts in the race, with the open Honda/Predator. This proves that when set up right, the little small blocks will compete with anything out there, its not all about power, its how consistently you can put down the power. That Jawa had everyone beat on horsepower but could not put it down even on a good bite track. That 80hp Wankel of Lamb's was wicked, but that small block of mine was right on him, he wasnt pulling away. My chain worked its way loose and started skipping teeth as the race went on, until i finally got wrecked by someone trying to drive the black X kart with one hand, with a broken throttle cable, which ended the race with only about 6 green flag laps because of other drivers giving the driver of the black kart an ass chewing for the way he was driving.

    https://www.facebook.com/DoubleDeuce...9170376611928/

    here is another RWYB race, with the limited animal, same kart as i was on in the other race. Started 4th, finished 3rd...i was just plain out powered and wasnt handling very well in that one, there were several Sudam's in that field that night, all were behind me. You might reconize a few of them....Ed Kiskaden in the black #22 and Chris Crider in the white #29 were both on Sudams, me on a little limited animal, since my Open animal wasnt finished at the time. Same Jawa and same Billet animal as the last race, out front, along with Lambs Wankel. You'll have to skip to about the halfway point in this video to see the open feature, this video is all the classes for the night together.

    https://www.facebook.com/DoubleDeuce...3677361494563/
    If you think they are so competitive in any track you should try them at the UAS GN against the Jawas, GMs and 250s, or even goid Sudams. Have you tried that? Nothing against your engines vut I doubt they could be less than one lap from teams like Seay, or Wiggins Jawa, etc. It all depends if the level you daced, not just the engines themselves. For tge amounts you names you can also resleeved a big 2 cycle inclyding piston if you do it yourself. 50 60 races with just a gasket change on an open? Sorry again but I seriously doubt it as most of us here would too.
    Last edited by rainman; 06-17-2017 at 08:44 PM.

  29. #59
    4 Cycle Advanced User
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    Quote Originally Posted by tecbigdog View Post
    jimmy, your knowledge of 2 strokes may/maynot be limited but, one thing is certain, al's knowledge definitely is limited and he is too hard headed to want to learn.....
    lmaooo!!! ��

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