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Thread: Economical Scales

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by racing promotor View Post
    I can assure you when you show rear cross it confuses some, I've gotten calls about it before guy's asking this was before you were allowed back.
    Me too, I've had to tell guys to don't pay attention to that crap.
    He got banned from several pages on Facebook as well.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by alvin l nunley View Post
    That's a very insulting statement to put on a public board. I'm severely offended!! Unlike you, I do not talk down to anybody. You assume you know what confuses new people coming to this sport, I assume nothing, I just tell it like I know it.

    Then please tell me, this time that i ask because you never answer this question, how many oval kart races have you won? Ive won a fair share over the last several years, so i think when i say it confuses people, it actually does.
    Please share your oval experience with us so we understand please.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoCo Tire Treatments View Post
    Then please tell me, this time that i ask because you never answer this question, how many oval kart races have you won?
    I've answered this questions before, you must've missed it.
    "How many have I won"? Every one I ever raced in! Admittedly, the number was few, maybe five. They were at one racetrack, San Jose California, said to be 3/8 mile paved high banked, mostly a super modified track. When we had time trials, I had fast time. My winning margin was large. Large turn out for the exhibitions. I attributed my winning to innovative gear selection and clutch setup, along with an understanding of strategy. When I raced there were no dirt tracks for karts in California. What else do you want to know? I'm ready for all the negative comments!

  4. #34
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    Al, How long ago were those wins?

    Point being that I haven't been active on the track for about ten years, and things have changed enough in that ten years that I'm not comfortable offering handling advice on my own forum.
    Even ten years ago, we had adjustable castor, camber, adjustable rear cassettes, big offsets, cut tires mounted on rims 2 inches wider than the tires, and all sorts of other things.
    The fast dirt oval setups we used in 1990 were not applicable to 2008 setups, and are even less applicable now.

    In the words of Mark Twain, It ain't what you don't know that causes problems, it's what you do know that just ain't so.


    Jeez, just think about the poor guy that started this thread.

  5. #35
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    You make some good points. A lot of things have changed, including the fact that I'm now 77 years old and could never be competitive again. Still, as much as some things have changed, some fundamental stuff has not changed. While some weight distributions schemes have changed, the fundamentals have not. While some exhaust schemes have changed, the fundamentals have not. While some tire schemes have changed, the fundamentals have not. While I mostly try to avoid these conversations on changes in the "schemes", the fundamentals are the same.
    Fundamentals like compression pressure, compression ratio, that hasn't changed. Picking the right fuel, that hasn't changed. The correct stagger for a given track, that hasn't changed. The correct setting of a clutch, that hasn't changed. The process of finding the right gear ratio, that hasn't changed. What I'm trying to say is; lots of things change, but the fundamentals stay the same, for the most part. I consider myself well founded in the fundamentals.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Evans View Post
    Al, How long ago were those wins?

    Point being that I haven't been active on the track for about ten years, and things have changed enough in that ten years that I'm not comfortable offering handling advice on my own forum.
    Even ten years ago, we had adjustable castor, camber, adjustable rear cassettes, big offsets, cut tires mounted on rims 2 inches wider than the tires, and all sorts of other things.
    The fast dirt oval setups we used in 1990 were not applicable to 2008 setups, and are even less applicable now.

    In the words of Mark Twain, It ain't what you don't know that causes problems, it's what you do know that just ain't so.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by alvin l nunley View Post
    You make some good points. A lot of things have changed, including the fact that I'm now 77 years old and could never be competitive again. Still, as much as some things have changed, some fundamental stuff has not changed. While some weight distributions schemes have changed, the fundamentals have not. While some exhaust schemes have changed, the fundamentals have not. While some tire schemes have changed, the fundamentals have not. While I mostly try to avoid these conversations on changes in the "schemes", the fundamentals are the same.
    Fundamentals like compression pressure, compression ratio, that hasn't changed. Picking the right fuel, that hasn't changed. The correct stagger for a given track, that hasn't changed. The correct setting of a clutch, that hasn't changed. The process of finding the right gear ratio, that hasn't changed. What I'm trying to say is; lots of things change, but the fundamentals stay the same, for the most part. I consider myself well founded in the fundamentals.
    Al,
    None of the fundamentals have changed. However, in dirt kart chassis setup, the way people are using those fundamentals to go faster is constantly changing. Shoot, I'm sure there are fundamentals we don't even know about yet.

    I'm thinking that no one has problems with your contributions regarding; carburetion, mixture, EGT, air density, etc.
    And even the occasional gear ratio is a gear ratio deal is OK. (they make me smile)
    You run into problems (on this website) when you give 1980 kart setup advice in 2018, in an area where you, admittedly, have little experience. It's obvious, yet you have such a hard time seeing it.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Evans View Post
    Al,
    None of the fundamentals have changed. However, in dirt kart chassis setup, the way people are using those fundamentals to go faster is constantly changing. Shoot, I'm sure there are fundamentals we don't even know about yet.

    I'm thinking that no one has problems with your contributions regarding; carburetion, mixture, EGT, air density, etc.
    And even the occasional gear ratio is a gear ratio deal is OK. (they make me smile)
    You run into problems (on this website) when you give 1980 kart setup advice in 2018, in an area where you, admittedly, have little experience. It's obvious, yet you have such a hard time seeing it.
    You are whipping a dead horse......

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by alvin l nunley View Post
    You make some good points. A lot of things have changed, including the fact that I'm now 77 years old and could never be competitive again. Still, as much as some things have changed, some fundamental stuff has not changed. While some weight distributions schemes have changed, the fundamentals have not. While some exhaust schemes have changed, the fundamentals have not. While some tire schemes have changed, the fundamentals have not. While I mostly try to avoid these conversations on changes in the "schemes", the fundamentals are the same.
    Fundamentals like compression pressure, compression ratio, that hasn't changed. Picking the right fuel, that hasn't changed. The correct stagger for a given track, that hasn't changed. The correct setting of a clutch, that hasn't changed. The process of finding the right gear ratio, that hasn't changed. What I'm trying to say is; lots of things change, but the fundamentals stay the same, for the most part. I consider myself well founded in the fundamentals.
    Where in your racing career did you use front and rear cross %?
    This is what Earl was referring to, but you continually post it.
    You have been told over and over and over that front and rear cross% isn't used by any form of oval racing, but you keep feed false information to new people

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Evans View Post
    You run into problems (on this website) when you give 1980 kart setup advice in 2018, in an area where you, admittedly, have little experience. It's obvious, yet you have such a hard time seeing it.
    Can you give me some specifics? I believe, maybe incorrectly, that the basics haven't changed since 1980. Now you don't set up a 2018 kart like you would a 1980 kart, I know that, I never said you did! You notice that I have never said specifically how to set up a dirt kart. I have "only" pointed out some anomalies, from the norm, on occasion. This recent bashing of my corner weights spreadsheet is over some information in it that is not normally included in other setup sheets. The information on weight differences between left and right hand wheels is just information, to do with as you please, including ignoring it. Why people make such a big deal about it is beyond me. I'm told I'm confusing the newcomers, but the newcomers have no idea, apparently, what all that information is about. They will learn, I have no doubt of that. I'll tell you, the setups that I have seen recommended here on your site, have been all over the place in regards to LR weight. I've seen weight distribution differences from 40lbs. to over 200 lbs. Left to right. I don't know what that means, but it's such a significant difference, I would want to find out, if for no other reason than to satisfy my curiosity!

  10. #40
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    Dammit Al, don't be obtuse.
    Quote Originally Posted by tecbigdog View Post
    You are whipping a dead horse...…………...
    I believe you're right.

  11. #41
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    We deal with Cross, LS% and nose.
    Delete the rest from your spreadsheet it's useless information

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by XXX#40 View Post
    We deal with Cross, LS% and nose.
    Delete the rest from your spreadsheet it's useless information
    I deal with Briggs & Honda.
    Delete clones and Predators from your information.

    See, Jamie, it's a two-way street.
    Freedom of speech is a wonderful thing when it is exercised within reason.
    It's no use arguing with Al...he has as much right to spew misinformation as anyone else on here.
    Thankfully there is at least some accountability on here that is not found in other forms of social media (ie facebook) where misinformation abounds.


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  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Evans View Post
    Dammit Al, don't be obtuse.

    I believe you're right.
    I believe you meant "obtus"
    2.narrow-minded
    3.dull, boring, lifeless
    4. slow to understand or perceive something
    I hardly think I'm that, that I argue with you about it is proof enough. Many times people are so convinced of some fact they hold dear, they are hard-pressed to consider something new. you and I could both be guilty of that!

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by alvin l nunley View Post
    I believe you meant "obtus"
    2.narrow-minded
    3.dull, boring, lifeless
    4. slow to understand or perceive something
    I hardly think I'm that, that I argue with you about it is proof enough. Many times people are so convinced of some fact they hold dear, they are hard-pressed to consider something new. you and I could both be guilty of that!
    Wrong answer

  15. #45
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    I actually find that Al and the discussions he gets into are quite entertaining.

  16. #46
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    Al,

    No one denies the numbers, as irrelevant as they are.

    The issue that people have, is the fact that people who are trying to LEARN the keys to winning races and being competitive, are being led to believe that some those numbers and the relationships they have, are important.

    They aren't.

    There is all kinds of measurable, quantifiable data on racing karts. The question remains, does it have anything to do with making me faster? If it doesn't have anything to do with making me faster, it's not an observation worth mentioning (or in your case, pounding in to peoples heads)
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  17. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade View Post
    I actually find that Al and the discussions he gets into are quite entertaining.
    Kinda like train wrecks

    Al can't read your replies anymore, unless he logs out.

  18. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarlsonMotorsports View Post
    I deal with Briggs & Honda.
    Delete clones and Predators from your information.

    See, Jamie, it's a two-way street.
    Freedom of speech is a wonderful thing when it is exercised within reason.
    It's no use arguing with Al...he has as much right to spew misinformation as anyone else on here.
    Thankfully there is at least some accountability on here that is not found in other forms of social media (ie facebook) where misinformation abounds.


    -----
    Thanks and God bless,
    Brian Carlson
    Carlson Racing Engines
    Vector Cutz

    www.CarlsonMotorsports.com
    Carlson Motorsports on FaceBook
    29 years of service to the karting industry
    Linden, IN
    765-339-4407
    bcarlson@CarlsonMotorsports.com
    I told him to delete front and rear cross% from his spreadsheet
    Please tell us Brian what info do those numbers tell you?
    the example you gave doesn't work, try again

  19. #49
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    Mike Burris breaks it down into pounds of bite on each corner of the chassis. (Per a conversation more years ago than I care to admit)

  20. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by XXX#40 View Post
    I told him to delete front and rear cross% from his spreadsheet
    Please tell us Brian what info do those numbers tell you?
    the example you gave doesn't work, try again
    Those numbers tell me nothing. Never implied that they did.
    Just like telling me how successful the box stock Predator engine class is.
    If I don't care about the data, then I simply disregard it.

    You totally missed my point, but it's not the first time.

    [SIZE=1]- - - Updated - - -[/SIZE]

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Evans View Post
    Mike Burris breaks it down into pounds of bite on each corner of the chassis. (Per a conversation more years ago than I care to admit)


    What is a "pound of bite?" Is that like a quart of bite?

  21. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarlsonMotorsports View Post
    Those numbers tell me nothing. Never implied that they did.
    Just like telling me how successful the box stock Predator engine class is.
    If I don't care about the data, then I simply disregard it.

    You totally missed my point, but it's not the first time.

    [SIZE=1]- - - Updated - - -[/SIZE]





    What is a "pound of bite?" Is that like a quart of bite?
    How do new racers disregard info that they have no clue what they are looking at?
    We are talking about confusing new racers.
    You and I know the info is useless, but what about them?

  22. #52
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    I really except you to understand this Al but I really don't expect you to accept it.

    Quoting Al: " I'll tell you, the setups that I have seen recommended here on your site, have been all over the place in regards to LR weight. I've seen weight distribution differences from 40lbs. to over 200 lbs. Left to right. I don't know what that means, but it's such a significant difference, I would want to find out, if for no other reason than to satisfy my"


    You SAID you don't know what it means. Here's what it means Al. The difference is there because of different ways racers will use their karts.

    You've explained to us the fundamentals have not changed.

    Al, your wrong they have changed. Racers today not only change setup because of track conditions, they also change their setup because of how they intend to use their equipment. Today Al it's about tuning to how your going to use your tires. The equipment and the radical swings in numbers you don't understand Al, are there because of how racers will >choose< to use their karts.

    Think of racing today Al as using a sharp chisel to gouge a groove in a piece of wood to mount a door hinge. Everyone's got the same very sharp chisel Al and everyone's very sharp chisel will cut a groove. The difference of weather or not the door when mounted will close properly is not about differences in very sharp chisel's and how blades are sharpened Al, it's about how the chisel is used.

    Racers today Al are way beyond fundamentals. Setup is about the situation Al, not about fundamentals.


    edit: Al, it's not about LR weight it's about how the LR will be used per ... everything. The weight does not matter Al, it's about if the LR tire is able to function as expected and as needed per how the racer chooses to use their equipment.

  23. #53
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    OK I don't know about all that but I have had great luck with middle of the road to a little more expensive bathroom scales. The last set I had got me to within 1/2 percent of my friends high dollar " racing " scales. Half the time the numbers were exactly the same. $125 vs $1000 - $1400 for a set of Longacre's * note , sometimes the bathroom scales were a pain to keep zero'ed and I had to pre-weight them.

  24. #54
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    glad were back onto cheap scales after the 50 post intermission.

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