If the Engine rules are. Any Made for karting engine or Combination of engines No limit to Modifications ,No Limit to cc's .One Minimum weight for the entire class.

One Tire rule they must read ((pick a viable number))) for example 55 on each tracks durometer ,

No disagreement about engine legality .New Karter's could confidently buy equipment knowing it would be legal .

Open Engines, only a tire rule .

IMO the Same drivers that are winning now will still be winning

Chuck

Chuck one major issue with that kind of rule. Insurance.

I spent a bit of time on the phone with the insurance underriter for NKA concerning how big we can go cc wise and still have our racers, tracks, and fans be covered.

It was agreed that the under wrighter would use the National UAS rule as the industry standard. The insurance carrier will cover insidents as long as the engine cc is a max of 255 cc on a 2 stroke and 510 on a 4 stroke. They further mentioned to me that they would consider traveling series such as the UAS to be covered under the tracks insurance.

Tracks that allow true RWYB rules probably need to contact their insurance carrier because they might find that if a driver running a big 600 plus CC engine gets banged up the track won't be covered and neither will the driver.

The UAS has reached the top most limit of CC's that we will allow. We do not want to run under rules that could leave our drivers not covered in case of an on track insident.

__________________
The worst thing to ever happen to the UAS!!! Just ask Mike

The CC could be set to whatever the Insurance would allow ,The point was to simplify the legality of the rules , Tires would equalize the engines. Without restricting which engines were legal.

New karters have to be brought into the sport for it to continue ,With infighting and lack of continuity between regions .That will never happen.

Chuck

One other thing to keep in the back of all our mind is that if with our new engines packages being bigger, if all of a sudden claims go up we could be forced to go to smaller engines. This is the downside to racing that we dont think about. When we get to certain areas in the country , mainly mine we sometimes turn into wreckfest and then the risk for the insurance carrier goes up. I believe it will be all our responsibility to keep the reins on new drivers that have found the open bug because of the MX engines coming in.JMO

brian. get in touch w/ the waynesfield promoter,badger i think? we went to that RWYB race and it was a blast! 400cc 600cc snow mobile engines,no wt,no cc,just safety checks. said they had insurance! h-ll of a race on a third mile banked oval sprint car track, i took a knife to a gun fight,really. running uas wt for 125cc. ran 2nd in 2 heats, didnt look bad in feature ? running 2nd when the clutch tossed a seal . but when that guy open that 600 up. wow look outwankel!!! no comparison! may have to go snowmobiling more> sounded like 2 -131 sudam when it hit the powerband.bobby garland should be glad he stayed home. oh well!jmo. john

John who was his insurance carrier? might be good info for the future just in case.

__________________
The worst thing to ever happen to the UAS!!! Just ask Mike

John, many of the ins companies have K&K ins as their underwriter. They go by the rules set forth by NKA aka Joe Janoski. The limits are 250cc 2 stroke and 500cc 4 stroke, they would prefer that there was no multi cylinder engines but are allowing them under the UAS rules. Do you have any pics from that race, I would have loved to be there. How did they mount the 600cc on the kart? Was it behind the driver or on the RS, it had to be wild for sure.

Please all, not bashing anyone on here, just concerned with safety for all of us and dont want to see open racing as we know it disappear.

That limits the class to 2 cycles only, since all the 4 cycles were designed to go on tillers, generators and etc.

Not true. The Blockzilla was designed for racing, whether its drag racing or kart racing. With that being said, I still don't agree with mixing 4-cycles and 2-cycles. They are 2 completely different animals.

Now, let's see someone with a picture of a blockzilla on a tiller. That would be really funny. LOL!

BA

Front tine or rear?

front would be fun. LOL!!!!!!

OK, So I can't buy health care insurance at any price....right ? So, the next time I am feeling whimpy, I need to come to a UAS race, sign in, make a couple of laps and then fall out of the kart ? THEN my hospital bills will be paid ? Party On Dude !!! This works for me.

If I fall out of the kart, you other guys...Please aim for my head or my legs. My chest hurts enough already LOL

If you get hurt at a racetrack racing i'll bet a $1000.00 to a dollar that no insurance company will pay any of your med bills. Ask to see a copy of the policy next time your at a racetrack and see what you get.

I broke my colar bone on track at hwy 120 about 5 years ago and the insurance didn't pay a dime for my trip to the ER. They kept comming up with excuses as to why they couldn't pay, finnaly I did what they wanted and just payed it myself just to be done with it.

you might want to contact Goodhope speedway and ask who they have for insurance. You guys might have read the posts about Don Roy's accident at the final KUAS race. He is being taken care of from what I am told.

__________________
The worst thing to ever happen to the UAS!!! Just ask Mike

I broke my collar bone and right arm at Cridersville Speedway in 97 and they paid me $3500 even tho my insurance covered me

Well Charlie there is $2000 you owe

__________________
The worst thing to ever happen to the UAS!!! Just ask Mike

The problem now is if your own med ins catches the cause for the injury they might say they will refuse to pay because someone else is liable. Ultimately they will have to pay before you shell out the money but if they can get someone else they will. Last year when I had my knee surgery work comp tried to deny the claim and the hospital sent the bill to my personal ins. They listed cause of injury as work related and BCBS denied the claim. Of course this forced me into hiring an atty. I am just concerned about someone not getting benefits that they paid for and lose their house or vehicle just because we out trying to have some fun. I am just trying to keep everything in prospective.JMO

The last year Silver Springs ran, my youngest son came out of the kart and flew head first into a steel guard rail. Split his Simpson Super Bandit right down the middle. Total Bill was around $16,000. I think the track insurance was K&K. They paid the 1st $10,000, then my own insurance paid the rest. Does the UAS carry the insurance? I thought each track has their own insurance that comes out of the pit passes. How about when we race indoors? any lapse of coverage there? Just wondering. Steve Sr.

If that is the case, why aren't 2 Sudams legal? The leadership in the UAS keeps wanting to give guys the tools to kill theirselves so let's just see what is what......
I really don't buy this deal.....sure, it makes it ok for KK but they run Flat Track bikes on the same tracks we run on. They get to be 750cc. Who here is going to try to suggest that a dual engine Sudam kart is more dangerous than a flat track bike?
LOL.....excuses, excuses......EXCUSES.
What a joke,
Grady

O.k. Mike I forgot one part of the wording. The current UAS rule wording concerning 255 2 strokes and 510 cc 4 stroke are the standard they will allow.

In other words any SINGLE CYLINDER 255 cc 2 stroke or 510 cc 4 Stroke.

The UAS rule as written (based on the origonal FAS/FLUAS rule) is the standard that K&K is basing their coverage on.

Sorry for the misunderstanding

__________________
The worst thing to ever happen to the UAS!!! Just ask Mike

And since3 I have been your favorite target lately Mike here is one back at you. We all know you don't need to use excused Mike. People that have not done anything of substance in this century don't need them.

__________________
The worst thing to ever happen to the UAS!!! Just ask Mike

Grady did you run out of Diapers, all you ever do is cry and *****

__________________
If your not part of the solution you're part of the problem

Mike, K&K does not really want to insure twin engines or twin cylinder engines, Nor do they insure any type bike, trike, or quad. They allow the twins as they are part of the rules package for the UAS and have been for many years.

There is no misunderstanding. They base their coverage on the UAS rules. Seeing that this is the first year we are allowing 250 singles and 450 MX 4-cycles, I wonder how the FAS and Tri State got covered this past year? No, I don't. They got covered because that is what they wanted and the insurance company followed their rules for their coverage. If the UAS changed it's rules to cover dual Sudams, which would be the same displacement as you already have in place, you could find an insurance company to cover you.

Now for your smart comment, I was the 04 Tri State Champion. I won 3 of 5 races I ran in the 05 ApUAS series. I ran 3rd in the Truitt this year. That was my worst run of the year.

What have you done, racing wise? Look, I am not out to get you. I am only out to show you that you have a LOT to learn. Pay more attention and less time jacking your jaw and you won't be needing to worry abut me.

You have less experience than nearly everyone on here when it comes to racing. There is a time to run your mouth. That is after you have some experience.

Grady

This is Directly from K&K s web page they Cover any form of racing .

To say they "limit" to a certain cc Is just an excuse.

Eligible Operations

- Demo derbies - Short track oval racing
- Drag racing - Racing associations
- Independent car club activities - Road courses
- Indoor karting - Snowmobile competitions
- Kart racing - Specialty motorsports events
- Motorcycle racing - Super speedways
- Motorsports/driving schools - Tractor/truck pulls
- Motorsports Country Clubs

Who or Whom decides what engines and weights are legal?

For the sport to grow( just survive ) there needs to be a single direction .Who will come into this class UAS with the question of engines up in the air.

1. buy a wankle <<no wait they might be ban in 2011

2. buy a Sudam << no wait ,if wankles are legal then I'll have to sell the Sudam at a loseand then buy a wankle

3.Buy 2 125 sudams << no wait the modified Wankle is faster

4.buy 2 reedjets weight advantage<< no wait Wankle ?

5. don't do anything because someone new will cry louder and all the rules will just change.


Make a rule and sick with it !!

legal , not legal ,,,,,425# or 450#

All the crying in the stock classes (of cheating or someone having an advantage) has came to the "KRUAS "Kinda Restricted Unlimited All Stars

Well, at least when I post, I am trying to make a point other than only bashing someone personally.

I may have my crying.....but have you ever looked in the mirror?

I have heard every excuse in the book as to why dual Sudams aren't allowed. When I hear one that has some substance to it, I will no longer have a complaint in that area. All I want is a chance. I have seen some great guys in a open kart. I have seen Victor, Terry, Paschal.....and I have NEVER heard of them lapping the whole field in 12 laps and the whole field twice except one by the end of the race. People have stated 15 lbs won't make a difference. If it doesn't make a difference, why did Mark change the rule? You know, I think I was wrong calling him a crook. I appologize for that. I honestly believe he was trying to compromise between the UAS and the Tri State/FAS. The fact it became 135lbs plus 1 lb per CC made me change my mind. If he had never have mentioned the importer deal......I would have never have jumped in that direction. I don't understand why he did that......and I did JUMP. With that said, I still think what he did was wrong BECAUSE of the way it was done BUT that is another issue.

OK, give us something that won't make it matter anymore. Make any 250 2-cycle, 450 4-cycle, and wankle 430lbs and let's stop any chance of a complaint from me or anyone else. Money is not an issue according to the leadership SO let's really see what is what.

By the way, I missed one remark in your posts before. Have you ever seen the exhaust on a F1 car? Man, those things really make the exhaust glow red. Imagine how inefficient those things must be......LOL. They are the only thing I have ever seen turn the exhaust red that far from the exhaust port. Do you know what second on that list is? Oh, Timmy.........you poor thing. One day you will get me....maybe.
Grady

Great points Mike but a little foggy on your part. Not 100% sure about the TriUAS but I do know that the FAS did consult their insurance underwriter (not K&K) before they inacted the rule. Is K&K the underwriter of tracks in your area? If so how much are your racers willing to fork up so that they can be covered at tracks that use K&K? K&K has concerns about a kart that carries HP over 80 or 90 hp. A twin Sudam would be at about 100 right?


Mike there is where you get lost. You think like a long time Karter. This is not a negitive toward you or most of the others that are long time karters. Karting and especialy open/UAS Karting is a product that can sell VERY easy. Personaly if I were behind the wheel or not I would find it offencive that the most radical HP division holds a national event where their winner makes less than the purple plate division.

My experience I draw from is in promotions. I have not promoted racing but I have promoted an orginization that represented over 10,000 familys. I with my "board of directors" locked down grants from minor companys such as Microsoft. I have delt with the stupidly rich and had to create proposals that were simplifyed to the point where they gave their funds up.

Rules are a minor consideration to these public relations/advertising departments as long as they are consistant thru out the orginization. This was an issue with the orginization I use to run. WE lost a $50,000 grant thanks to a "rogue" chapter in Arizona.

You don't like the direction that UAS is going? Fine. My jab was to point out that you are a good driver but what have you done for open racing as a whole aside from donating Buller gift certificates?

__________________
The worst thing to ever happen to the UAS!!! Just ask Mike

As far as the exhaust glowing Mikey it would take to long and your not capable of understanding the physics involved in sonic waves.

So on a kindergarden level so you can understand it's about velocity.
The reason a F1 exhaust glows so far from the header is air speed. Those exhausts are tuned in length and diameter to maximize sonic waves air speed and and to minimize pressure at the exhaust valve. Fast air creates the heat you see the extreme heat from the air speed heats the pipe to glow as it does.

The air velocity is also the reason they sound like they do and not a Nascar stock car with 2" headers rememberSterlin Marlin at Daytona with the kodak car?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqO6tEZdUQ0

A wankle rotor traveling at 3500 rpm is NOT creating heat in the exhaust like a F1 but you go ahead and keep thinking you a smart guy.

keep calling Eric out on his experience and laying claim you have all the answers to the UAS Keep bashing Mark cause you don't like the way he fixed a problem, Bottom line He fixed it.


Name the race that the Wankle lapped every racer cause I've never seen it happen nor hear of the race. Was it one of your APUAS event's with you and 2 other guys in it?

I've seen Paschel about lap a entire field of good UAS drivers the only thing that stopped him was a caution. and not one of the chopped up mini series either. He was on a Sudam people cried cause he had a 170cc Kermit special. It was just a simple every day Sudam nothing more. Ban the Sudam!!!!

__________________
If your not part of the solution you're part of the problem

Nice video Tim. That looked like the Arrows chassis, possibly 2000 with a rebadged Renault "Supertech" V10 engine. Interestingly enough, the exhaust pipes on the modern F1 car are not very long. In comparison, the modern Nascar car features pipes more than twice the length of F1 pipes.

__________________
Jeff Davis
WCUAS Administrator
UAS Statistician
Verizon: 828-429-5261
[email]jeffdaviswcuas@gmail.com[/email]

Making people angry since 1983.

Gentleman: The AKTPA offers up to 10M in General Liability and 50K in Medical. Our members tell us we offer the best coverage at the lowest rates.

Give us a call if we can be of service to you.

AKTPA, Inc.
317-501-3377
info@aktpa.com

Mike there is where you get lost. You think like a long time Karter. This is not a negitive toward you or most of the others that are long time karters. Karting and especialy open/UAS Karting is a product that can sell VERY easy. Personaly if I were behind the wheel or not I would find it offencive that the most radical HP division holds a national event where their winner makes less than the purple plate division. (Quote)


Not that hard to figure, usually the purple plate race is a better race to watch and that is what it takes to gain sponsorship for a race. Now we add more HP and a bigger mix of engines that that are big and heavy with novice level drivers in areas (with no disrespect meant towards them) and you end up with a crash and or spin fest. The last two UAS shows i raced we had a total of 20 green flag feature race laps, hard to get guys out to a show that has this from over 4 hrs. away.
Another UAS show I got dumped from behind slowing up for another kart trying to be patient. Got hit from another kart that was a straight behind. Broke three ribs in the process and never even tried to file a claim. Still won the feature that night on the back up twin.

Its not an issue to me as to what engine will do what to me, its an issue as to who can do what with what. A race with a Seay, Peters, Dee, Ferrell, Forsyth, Woodard, Gibb, Pollard, lindgren, kline, Garde, and several others with Wankles big 250s and 450s, count me in it will be a Kick A** race, go fast turn left.

Uas is about not wanting the most but wanting the best. I feel you need to prove yourself before you are out there racing these new big beasts. Kind of like the kid kart clinic my grandaughter had to go through this past weekend before racing on the syrup.

Guys its not just about the Tyrres there are several that are good with them, heck that technology is easily bought these days.

Beat me up if you like but this is
JMHO
Mike

clausen I agree with you on why purple plate pays more money. You are looking at the issue from a kart racer perspective also though. Yes Phantom, Burris, Maxxis, ect are going to put their advertising dollars where they get the most bang for the buck. We don't realy have a shot at that. What we do have is a great shot at companys whos advertising budget is larger than Phantom's yearly sales.

Go to your local Coke or Pepsi bottler, go to your local grocery store chain. Heck we can give them a whole season of advertising including some "car shows" in their parking lot for less than they pay for a single 1 minute tv add.

UAS drivers are amazing at thinking outside of the box when it comes to their race set up but when it comes to promoting the sport and events there is alot of tunnel vision.

I also agree that "rookies" in a UAS race can be a problem.

I am a rookie and have had my share of issues mechanicaly but I also have way to much respect for the guys that allow me to race with them to cause issues (Cue Bobbys comment about the first heat at fall nationals 08 lol)

Do you have crash fests? then why are drivers driving over their heads? Has the administrator had a talk with them about the issues? Have you gone to a rookie racers pit to politely discuss potential driving issues that you have seen? If so have these rookies been receptive to the information or do they act cocky cause they don't need advice?

If the later of the 2 then maybe the regional Administrator needs to thank them for comming and tell them they are welcome to come back and run with the region in a few years. WE have all read much about the MWUAS issues and I am sure half of them are true lol. A strong hand from an administrator and a feeling of policeing our own could go a long way IMO.

__________________
The worst thing to ever happen to the UAS!!! Just ask Mike

Eric,
The most important aspect of karting is what? PARTICIPATION, plain and simple. Without participation, we have no reason for anything. You have to have a plan that can be supported for the long term. If you get enough sponsor money to pay your guys show up money, you very well may grow in numbers. What happens if that money goes away? Those guys leave. I believe the best way is providing a rule format that can be supported long term. A racer just wants to be able to achieve goals. Maybe that is to finish every race.....or win one....or a top 3 every time. Maybe it is a championship.

My gift certificates follow this plan. I give them as hard luck awards for the most part. A guy might have a bad day and hopefully that little gift will help them enough to get them back to the track. It also helps repay my friend for all the help he has provided over the years.

Sticking to a simple plan is key to doing the most you can for karting. If we keep adding rules that make racers update to another engine every year, the numbers will drop.

Having rookie drivers is fine by me. They have to learn too. As long as they respect other racers, they add to the upside of karting. I have seen many more veterans be overly aggressive compared to newbies. You can't get good if you don't participate.

If kart engines are really an issue to insurance companies, how do those guys race unlimited in Superkarts? I mean, many of them have well over 120hp and they go way over 145mph on tracks designed for cars, with guardrails and such. Do really want to go there? The insurance company will request the rules and base a policy on that, not the other way around.....within reason.

You have a contact above that will support that......not to mention all the sporting events K&K covers. They will insure 400cc+ 2-cycles in road racing. We are in a more contained, safer racing enviroment, yet they won't cover us? PLEASE.............

Tim,
You know, I do know a little bit about air waves. You know, without them, a 2-cycle would be a total dog. It is the manipulation of those air waves that makes a pipe set-up better than another. You can control band width, power location, and output via the change in exhaust pressures because as the velocity of the air increases in a given area, the pressure must go down. This is simple physics. What is that called.....Bernoulli's equation, I believe.

The thing I want you to explain is if those ultra efficient F1 cars can make the exhaust glow all the way to the collector because of the air speed, how come a wankle does the same thing but in your words, it is very inefficient? That is the explaination I want to hear from you. Don't walk around the point. Even though the wankle has a max rotor rpm of 3600, doesn't mean the leading edge is going slow or that the velocity of the expanding combustion gases are slow.

The ability to control the exhaust to the point where the pipe will glow red is often a key indicator of the energy (HP) that is being created in a given cylinder. I don't care if it is a 2-cycle or a 4-cycle.

Educate me......LOL
Grady

(((RESPECTFULLY)))) there are many problems that need addressed as I see it in respect to the UAS. One with all modern karting in general.

When Karts were still a form of Open wheel racing there never seemed to be so many Crash-fests (as WrecIt said) Now I've seen karter run in wide open and braud side the guy in front of him with NO chance of making a pass ,and Taking out half the field .Yes There aren't any (that I,ve seen)
big flips but a lot more wrecks .

If they were still open wheeled everyone would be alot less likely to bonzi.

I honestly think there need to be two uas classes a 100cc stock appearing. Good cheep HP for the budget racer ,a good place for a novice to start before jumping to the Unlimited class.

and a Unlimited class (for kart engines Only) for a couple of reasons ,
first.. we Need Support . we need engines karts tires carb pipes parts and fuel .ect. To have these we need Manufacturers distributors suppliers and Builders .To have THESE they need to make a profit (or at least a living) (( If we don't have these we would be racing bigwheels)) If everyone is running off getting MX ,ATV,Snowmoble ect,Engines we have lost our karting base. Nothing structured can come from this .
Is the wankle the answer ,I don't know (maybe),But what ever is will only come and STAY if we have structured support. and that will only happen if there is a simplification of the class One or two or three engine types But it needs to be Kart specific.

second .. The legal engine/engines need to keep their backyard mechanic appeal. a lot of people just like the Idea of being able to work on there own engines ,Although IMO people that due it for a living tend to do it better ,but people still want the opportunity to at least at first to try.

Chuck