there's alot of talk on here about "class" motors but little about open motors so lets hear about what you have or better yet what you would do if you built a outlaw / open motor, lets just assume it's a anything goes 6.5 motors only......WHAT WOULD YOU BUILD, HOW AND WHY ??
1st) Real Honda motor
2nd) Bore and resleeve for a 3" piston, and O-Ring
3rd) Long rod 3.707"
4th) Any cam and roller rockers, as long as you have .400" at the valve.
5th) Big valve head, or billet head with reciever groove.
6th) Alky carb from 28mm-31mm
Got the standard hop ups here on a really light frame. If had some extra dough would like to try the arc stroker. It looks like a good bang for the buck without having to upgrade the toolbox too much.
I use to think that myself.
I personally feel that the stroker kit should have had "MORE STROKE"
If you buy the stroker kit for let's say $450 you end up with only 213cc. That's very little improvement over stock. Plus you have to start the motor by a electric hand held starter only because you have to remove the easy start assembly.
You can get more performance with a stock crank long rod and .253" piston. And this will only cost you about $180 in parts and you end up at 217cc.
Both are prices before the machine work.
The problem is that you still end up with less power than a regular briggs stroker Animal at 229cc.
guess my math was wrong, thought the .175 kit would help to get it around 230cc (piston, rod, and crank). Anyway, your idea sounds a lot more pocket friendly.
guess my math was wrong, thought the .175 kit would help to get it around 230cc (piston, rod, and crank). Anyway, your idea sounds a lot more pocket friendly.
I wish it did
My bigger motors get there size from the bore. And going with a large bore makes a real big difference.
.175" in stroke only makes only a 16cc difference in size.
.175" in bore makes makes a 27cc difference in size.
Here check this link out and calculate it up yourself. 2.681" standard bore, 2.125" standard stroke, 2.300" ARC crank
a couple of questions just how big can you go when you resleeve the cylinder? will it weaken the block if you go too big on the sleeve ? and if so what would you consider the max? so builders are removing the sleeve altogether and nicosill lining the aluminum, what do you think about this? Why do they only make the stroker crank for a honda / clone .175 but animals are .200+ ? , what do you think about adding the block deck plates to increase deck height? why must you remove the easy start on the cam for a stroker crank ?, it's been mentioned to me that the rod bolts on a honda billet rod are a weak link because they are offset unlike the animal or standard automotive design is this true? , whats the best production head to start with or if doing all the head mods bigger valves milling porting ect does it even matter what you start with at that point? whats considered a better carb mikuni flat slide (what ever size) or a tillotson of equal size ? what would you consider a better fuel gas or meth? what do you consider the good and bad points for both if any? just a COUPLE of questions this should get people going LOL
does anyone make billet blocks for the honda? billet cams? there does seem to be big gap between what is offered by the aftermarket for the honda / clone and the animals, is there a reason for putting different crank bearings in and if so which bearing and why?
a local guy just built a animal ( bad ass piece) high comp on alcohol and the head gasket keeps failing, what is considered max compression / max HP before this happens? and is there any fixes for it?
All your questions are basically answered already in my first 2 post.
3" piston, doesn't weaken the block, alky, O-Ring, any carb works when tuned properly, Steel Sleeve, Crank counter weights hits the easy start, Ask ARC why?
Ask the Animal guy why?
Most likely he has a large bore causing to much dynamic and static compression to mix causing a blown head gasket. Which is why O-Rings are needed.
You have to try and keep up. If it's posted already and you still don't understand. It's best to leave it to the pro's.
MDbike, whats the general principle behind running O-rings when your compression is real high, is it like a headgask. only of rubber?
No it's stainless steel wire. When you have a lot of pressure either high static compression, or high dynamic compression, or a combination of both. The head gasket will blow, most of that is because there are only 4 head bolts, and the oil return is right next to the bore.
How does it blow the head gasket?
It blows usually by the head flexing under pressure. Let's say you have 25 lbs of TQ on the head bolts and you are still blowing head gaskets. You take the head off and check the surface of the head, because it may now be slightly warp. So you get it resurfaced and put 30 lbs of TQ on the head bolts. You still end up blowing the head gasket. So you take it off again and you see that it now blew on the block side of the gasket. Now you have to check the deck of the block for straightness.
With the O-Ring it's cut into the block most of the time more into the block than into the head. Let's say you have 0.060" thick stainless steel wire. You will cut it to fit 0.040" into the block, 0.020" into the head.
You have to try and keep up. If it's posted already and you still don't understand. It's best to leave it to the pro's.[/QUOTE]
You didn't answer the questions, yes you said you could put a 3 inch bore but I asked what the LIMIT WAS? I asked why the stroker crank needed the easy start removed instead of just saying the counter weight hits the easy start you spout off.
let me make something very CLEAR to you Micheal this isn't my first rodeo I'm not stupid, I'm not a newbee, I'm not a washed up street squirel that thinks adding comp cam decals to bumper makes me fast, I've raced and built engines and cars for over 20 years, I've worked in one of the best engine building shops there is, I worked at Dart cylinder heads and have been porting heads probably longer that you've been walking and I've worked in chassis shops and machine shops all my life, I've built top running engines for drag racing, stock car, road race, tractor pull, boats, naturally asperated, nitrous, turbo, blower, supercharged etc etc my personal STREET CAR is a small block that makes 900 HP on motor and 1300 on nitrous weighs over 3200 lbs and runs low 8's on street tires and stock suppension so I'm pretty sure I can keep up you or anyone else, thats not to say I know everything but I know enough to ask more questions till I get the answer I need, I'm simple trying to learn whats what on the 6.5 motors so I don't have to learn the hard way, what is good on one motor isn't always good on another and I don't have the time or money to make costly mistakes.
if you can't be helpfull don't bother posting at all
You have to try and keep up. If it's posted already and you still don't understand. It's best to leave it to the pro's.
You didn't answer the questions, yes you said you could put a 3 inch bore but I asked what the LIMIT WAS? I asked why the stroker crank needed the easy start removed instead of just saying the counter weight hits the easy start you spout off.
let me make something very CLEAR to you Micheal this isn't my first rodeo I'm not stupid, I'm not a newbee, I'm not a washed up street squirel that thinks adding comp cam decals to bumper makes me fast, I've raced and built engines and cars for over 20 years, I've worked in one of the best engine building shops there is, I worked at Dart cylinder heads and have been porting heads probably longer that you've been walking and I've worked in chassis shops and machine shops all my life, I've built top running engines for drag racing, stock car, road race, tractor pull, boats, naturally asperated, nitrous, turbo, blower, supercharged etc etc my personal STREET CAR is a small block that makes 900 HP on motor and 1300 on nitrous weighs over 3200 lbs and runs low 8's on street tires and stock suppension so I'm pretty sure I can keep up you or anyone else, thats not to say I know everything but I know enough to ask more questions till I get the answer I need, I'm simple trying to learn whats what on the 6.5 motors so I don't have to learn the hard way, what is good on one motor isn't always good on another and I don't have the time or money to make costly mistakes.
if you can't be helpfull don't bother posting at all[/QUOTE]
Who is Micheal ? and you sound as if you have some knowledge and some hands on, then the Oring should have been in your general knowledge, also very easy to understand that the crank hits the easy start.
Dont take offense to his replys, he is very smart on alot of this stuff, i tell him all the time he just needs better people skills.......LOL
I not only have general knowledge of O ringed head I have my own engine done and my own BHJ O ringing fixture, so I guess I might know a little about it LOL like I said what works on one engine doesn't work on them all, just O ringing the block does very little, it just creates a much tighter "pinch point" for the copper gasket the trick is too O ring the head too to have a receiver groove, the crank hits the eazy start no problem he could have just said that but it also brings up another question WHY does it hit the eazy start????? is it just the counter weight hitting and if so why? and by how much? can it be machined to clear?
I don't doubt he's very knowledgable in fact he seems to be one with the most experience on open motors on here .....or atleast the most willing to share what he knows but thinking he knows everything and everyone else is stupid sure doesn't help him or anyone else, and lack of people skills is an understatement.
I not only have general knowledge of O ringed head I have my own engine done and my own BHJ O ringing fixture, so I guess I might know a little about it LOL like I said what works on one engine doesn't work on them all, just O ringing the block does very little, it just creates a much tighter "pinch point" for the copper gasket the trick is too O ring the head too to have a receiver groove, the crank hits the eazy start no problem he could have just said that but it also brings up another question WHY does it hit the eazy start????? is it just the counter weight hitting and if so why? and by how much? can it be machined to clear?
I don't doubt he's very knowledgable in fact he seems to be one with the most experience on open motors on here .....or atleast the most willing to share what he knows but thinking he knows everything and everyone else is stupid sure doesn't help him or anyone else, and lack of people skills is an understatement.
Some people know how to talk to others, some people dont, He's a good guy, he just expects people to get it. that dont happen, he definetly could teach a few people on here some things, but he wouldnt last long, as a teacher you need paitence, and people skills. lol
I dont think he thinks anyone is stupid, he just thinks you can explain something and you should get it, but some people things need to be drawn a different way....lol
I don't want the eazy yes you can or no you can't crap, I want to know WHY you can or can't, one question usually leads to several more to understand the full scope of things, sorry just the way I am. if I had all the parts and peices available in front of me I wouldn't need to ask so many questions, and it brings up the reason for why I have so many questions, I live in a big industrial city with just about any machine or machining available to me and "one of" parts aren't a problem from full billet blocks to billet cranks etc etc it all can be done, I just might be looking at a different way to "skin the cat" so to speak but it makes the process much shorter if I can learn from what others have already tried.
I think the maximum you can go is about 3.100" on the bore. That's with the sleeve I installed in the bock. The sleeve O.D. is 3.200" and is the biggest you can install. Any piston from 2.990"-3.080" is still considered a 3" piston.
When doing this you will need a HD (heavy duty) wrist pin. But making the motor seal up is the hard part, which is already posted.
Hey Kieth
What are you building for??
For modified you need to be building an animal because there is no replacement for displacement, and if you want to start out at 50cc or so (20%0) smaller then you really have your work cut out.
For "stock apperaring" then you are limited to the "clone" carb.
Just asking so I know how much I have to build to beat you
Hey Kieth
What are you building for??
For modified you need to be building an animal because there is no replacement for displacement, and if you want to start out at 50cc or so (20%0) smaller then you really have your work cut out.
For "stock apperaring" then you are limited to the "clone" carb.
Just asking so I know how much I have to build to beat you
STEVE
The gx200 Can run with and out run the Animal if built correctly. Even if it's a little smaller
You have to try and keep up. If it's posted already and you still don't understand. It's best to leave it to the pro's.
You didn't answer the questions, yes you said you could put a 3 inch bore but I asked what the LIMIT WAS? I asked why the stroker crank needed the easy start removed instead of just saying the counter weight hits the easy start you spout off.
let me make something very CLEAR to you Micheal this isn't my first rodeo I'm not stupid, I'm not a newbee, I'm not a washed up street squirel that thinks adding comp cam decals to bumper makes me fast, I've raced and built engines and cars for over 20 years, I've worked in one of the best engine building shops there is, I worked at Dart cylinder heads and have been porting heads probably longer that you've been walking and I've worked in chassis shops and machine shops all my life, I've built top running engines for drag racing, stock car, road race, tractor pull, boats, naturally asperated, nitrous, turbo, blower, supercharged etc etc my personal STREET CAR is a small block that makes 900 HP on motor and 1300 on nitrous weighs over 3200 lbs and runs low 8's on street tires and stock suppension so I'm pretty sure I can keep up you or anyone else, thats not to say I know everything but I know enough to ask more questions till I get the answer I need, I'm simple trying to learn whats what on the 6.5 motors so I don't have to learn the hard way, what is good on one motor isn't always good on another and I don't have the time or money to make costly mistakes.
if you can't be helpfull don't bother posting at all[/QUOTE]
I was replying and quoted to a previous post on the thread. The statement by MD bike , in a rough quote " try to keep up or get a pro to do it" was degrading to the person he was responding to and also conceded. My post only included the word AGREED....the rest was a quote that came out wrong due to a computer/software error on 4cycle.coms end. So in the words of MDbike, TRY TO KEEP UP WITH THIS THREAD,WILL YOU?
You would never see a statement like this from builders who have confidence such as Gecker,Clements,Dover and such. MD is a great guy and builder... lacking stones is all.
Matt DeLauro
Oh he got plenty of stones, i see you know of the people that think they are great, but do you really know who is great ? Im thinking not.....Everyone is a legend in there OWN Mind, and in yours i see.......
Oh he got plenty of stones, i see you know of the people that think they are great, but do you really know who is great ? Im thinking not.....Everyone is a legend in there OWN Mind, and in yours i see.......
well i hope this doesn't mean more pm's. The box can only hold 20 then who do we newbs get to contact for help after that?
